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-   -   Why do we choose rounds differently? (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1172619)

thegriz18 01-18-2010 20:44

Why do we choose rounds differently?
 
For rifles used for hunting and tactical or other purposes we look for loads that are fast, penetrate and expand. Then for handguns I see the same guys advocating heavy and slow 45's. Seems to me that terminal ballistics work the same for rifles as they do for handguns. Rifles that shoot bullets at higher velocity do more damage on target than bullets fired at lower velocity. Example: .308 vs 10mm, both with 180 grain bullets. When it comes to damage which one wins? Duh, the .308. It just doesn't make sense to me. If I were to make a conclusion I'd say velocity is a very important part of terminal ballistics. For those who say that BPW isn't valid, explain why a 180 grain .308 does more damage than a 180 grain 10mm. Same weight bullet, the 10mm is even larger in diameter, but the .308 wins because it has a higher velocity. If all we are doing is punching lead through tissue it seems that the two rounds would perform the same. I guess the fact that .308 beats 10mm with the same weight bullet has something to do with a pressure shock. I dunno, not tying to start a fight, but I want to point out how silly it gets on here when we debate BPW and people say it doesn't exist. If it didn't exist 10mm 180 grain loads would equal 180 grain .308 loads every time, but they don't.

JBP55 01-19-2010 06:16

Popcorn anyone?

thegriz18 01-19-2010 06:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by JBP55 (Post 14575503)
Popcorn anyone?

:popcorn: I'll pass you some.

dosei 01-19-2010 08:11

Most handgun calibers cannot create more BPW than a body can handle...most bottle-neck rifle calibers create a lot more BPW than a body can handle. This is why BPW is considered irrelevant when discussing handgun caliber, because the BPW they are able to create is within the levels that a body can reasonably absorb and is thus irrelevant. And most people will not say that slower is better, but rather that slower is acceptable in exchange for bigger/heavier. Larger bullets make larger holes. The larger & longer a hollow point bullet is, the larger a size it can expand to. The heavier a bullet is, the more inertia it has and thus will typically penetrate deeper. It takes all three...size, weight, and velocity...there is no "one" that trumps all. Since handguns typically do not have the velocity to deliver damaging BPW, one is left with the initial bullet size, it's maximum expanded size, and it's penetration capacity for creating adequate damage. Most of the 45 crowd are not advocates of "big and slow"...most 45acp defencive ammo is loaded hot (+P). I think the 45 crowd is really more of a "biggest, heaviest, fastest" crowd...use the biggest, heaviest bullet and push it as fast as possible.

:popcorn:

Brucev 01-19-2010 09:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by dosei (Post 14575833)
Most handgun calibers cannot create more BPW than a body can handle...most bottle-neck rifle calibers create a lot more BPW than a body can handle. This is why BPW is considered irrelevant when discussing handgun caliber, because the BPW they are able to create is within the levels that a body can reasonably absorb and is thus irrelevant. And most people will not say that slower is better, but rather that slower is acceptable in exchange for bigger/heavier. Larger bullets make larger holes. The larger & longer a hollow point bullet is, the larger a size it can expand to. The heavier a bullet is, the more inertia it has and thus will typically penetrate deeper. It takes all three...size, weight, and velocity...there is no "one" that trumps all. Since handguns typically do not have the velocity to deliver damaging BPW, one is left with the initial bullet size, it's maximum expanded size, and it's penetration capacity for creating adequate damage. Most of the 45 crowd are not advocates of "big and slow"...most 45acp defencive ammo is loaded hot (+P). I think the 45 crowd is really more of a "biggest, heaviest, fastest" crowd...use the biggest, heaviest bullet and push it as fast as possible.

:popcorn:

+1. Sincerely. brucev.

fredj338 01-19-2010 10:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegriz18 (Post 14573481)
For rifles used for hunting and tactical or other purposes we look for loads that are fast, penetrate and expand. Then for handguns I see the same guys advocating heavy and slow 45's. Seems to me that terminal ballistics work the same for rifles as they do for handguns. Rifles that shoot bullets at higher velocity do more damage on target than bullets fired at lower velocity. Example: .308 vs 10mm, both with 180 grain bullets. When it comes to damage which one wins? Duh, the .308. It just doesn't make sense to me. If I were to make a conclusion I'd say velocity is a very important part of terminal ballistics. For those who say that BPW isn't valid, explain why a 180 grain .308 does more damage than a 180 grain 10mm. Same weight bullet, the 10mm is even larger in diameter, but the .308 wins because it has a higher velocity. If all we are doing is punching lead through tissue it seems that the two rounds would perform the same. I guess the fact that .308 beats 10mm with the same weight bullet has something to do with a pressure shock. I dunno, not tying to start a fight, but I want to point out how silly it gets on here when we debate BPW and people say it doesn't exist. If it didn't exist 10mm 180 grain loads would equal 180 grain .308 loads every time, but they don't.

Because you are talking apples & oranges. The faster handgun loads can make about 1500fps. The 308 about 2700fps. The increase in tissue damage is not linear w/ vel. but expontial. So yo ucan not compare handgun rounds to rifle rounds. Maybe when you get into some of the magnums, 41mag & 44mag or heavy 45colts, but service rounds are just not making enough vel. w/ a heavy enough bullet to give reliable penetration. I'm sure someone can get a light wt solid copper HP to get good vel & still give adequate penetration.
BTW, not all rifle rounds are selected for high vel. Even in the age of super magnums, DG hunters in Africa still choose heavy & slow for whacking the largest DG. You can have too much vel which reduces penetration & when DG is the target, penetration is king, even to the point of using solids. Not completely diff form SD rounds against humans but then we aren't talking 400gr bullets @ 2200fps.

thegriz18 01-19-2010 12:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by fredj338 (Post 14576352)
Because you are talking apples & oranges. The faster handgun loads can make about 1500fps. The 308 about 2700fps. The increase in tissue damage is not linear w/ vel. but expontial. So yo ucan not compare handgun rounds to rifle rounds. Maybe when you get into some of the magnums, 41mag & 44mag or heavy 45colts, but service rounds are just not making enough vel. w/ a heavy enough bullet to give reliable penetration. I'm sure someone can get a light wt solid copper HP to get good vel & still give adequate penetration.
BTW, not all rifle rounds are selected for high vel. Even in the age of super magnums, DG hunters in Africa still choose heavy & slow for whacking the largest DG. You can have too much vel which reduces penetration & when DG is the target, penetration is king, even to the point of using solids. Not completely diff form SD rounds against humans but then we aren't talking 400gr bullets @ 2200fps.

I don't think that they are apples and oranges. They both operate off the same basic principle. Also, I don't consider a 400 grain bullet at 2200 fps slow in the whole scheme of launched projectiles. Let's not forget that some service caliber rounds achieve 1100+ fps. The 357 Sig, 40 S&W, 9mm and 10mm are all capable of achieving 1100-1400 fps within their respective caliber range. High velocity handgun rounds, say, 1100 fps+, should create more BPW than rounds in the 950-fps range. I think that we give weight too much consideration and not enough consideration to speed. We have the technology now to create bullets that are light and can with stand higher velocity and still hold together and penetrate. Handgun rounds may create a BPW that the body can handle, but it will cause a disruption to the system non-the-less.

mteagle1 01-19-2010 13:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by dosei (Post 14575833)
Most handgun calibers cannot create more BPW than a body can handle...most bottle-neck rifle calibers create a lot more BPW than a body can handle. This is why BPW is considered irrelevant when discussing handgun caliber, because the BPW they are able to create is within the levels that a body can reasonably absorb and is thus irrelevant. And most people will not say that slower is better, but rather that slower is acceptable in exchange for bigger/heavier. Larger bullets make larger holes. The larger & longer a hollow point bullet is, the larger a size it can expand to. The heavier a bullet is, the more inertia it has and thus will typically penetrate deeper. It takes all three...size, weight, and velocity...there is no "one" that trumps all. Since handguns typically do not have the velocity to deliver damaging BPW, one is left with the initial bullet size, it's maximum expanded size, and it's penetration capacity for creating adequate damage. Most of the 45 crowd are not advocates of "big and slow"...most 45acp defencive ammo is loaded hot (+P). I think the 45 crowd is really more of a "biggest, heaviest, fastest" crowd...use the biggest, heaviest bullet and push it as fast as possible.

:popcorn:

High school dropout does not understand what BPW means. What I do understand is that if I have to shoot someone it will be at a close range and I don't want the bullet to exit the body and hit someone else. I shoot a .45ACP (a lot) and I don't want the recoil of a +P spoiling my chance for a followup shot so I am not in your "biggest, heaviest, fastest" crowd. My .45 carry ammo is a 165gr HP Winchester Silvertip which is not +P or in 9mm it is a 115gr HP Hornady Critical Defense. The perfect self defense or military ammo would be one that penetrated about 6" with a permanent 6" wound channel.

dosei 01-19-2010 13:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegriz18 (Post 14577049)
I don't think that they are apples and oranges. They both operate off the same basic principle. Also, I don't consider a 400 grain bullet at 2200 fps slow in the whole scheme of launched projectiles. Let's not forget that some service caliber rounds achieve 1100+ fps. The 357 Sig, 40 S&W, 9mm and 10mm are all capable of achieving 1100-1400 fps within their respective caliber range. High velocity handgun rounds, say, 1100 fps+, should create more BPW than rounds in the 950-fps range. I think that we give weight too much consideration and not enough consideration to speed. We have the technology now to create bullets that are light and can with stand higher velocity and still hold together and penetrate. Handgun rounds may create a BPW that the body can handle, but it will cause a disruption to the system non-the-less.

Velocity needs to be around Mach 2 or better (2250 fps) to begin to see levels of BPW that are significantly in excess of what a body can handle and, thus, cause damage/disruption. Most SD handgun calibers fall way short of that mark. And even in rifle calibers, it's still about weight and speed. The 180 grain loads for the 308 are very popular among those that hunt with the 308...and that is one of the heaviest bullets for the 308. The 168 grain is one of the second heaviest for the 308, and it is the standard weight bullet for match ammo. When hunting dangerous game...what do hunters look for...they look for the biggest, heaviest bullets being pushed as fast as possible in a gun they can carry and shoot accurately.

DocKWL 01-19-2010 13:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegriz18 (Post 14577049)
I don't think that they are apples and oranges. They both operate off the same basic principle. Also, I don't consider a 400 grain bullet at 2200 fps slow in the whole scheme of launched projectiles. Let's not forget that some service caliber rounds achieve 1100+ fps. The 357 Sig, 40 S&W, 9mm and 10mm are all capable of achieving 1100-1400 fps within their respective caliber range. High velocity handgun rounds, say, 1100 fps+, should create more BPW than rounds in the 950-fps range. I think that we give weight too much consideration and not enough consideration to speed. We have the technology now to create bullets that are light and can with stand higher velocity and still hold together and penetrate. Handgun rounds may create a BPW that the body can handle, but it will cause a disruption to the system non-the-less.

You are comparing apples to oranges.

There is no BPW.

Read THIS and THIS and buy THIS

dosei 01-19-2010 13:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by mteagle1 (Post 14577434)
High school dropout does not understand what BPW means.

Ballistic
Pressure
Wave

fredj338 01-19-2010 13:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by mteagle1 (Post 14577434)
High school dropout does not understand what BPW means. What I do understand is that if I have to shoot someone it will be at a close range and I don't want the bullet to exit the body and hit someone else. I shoot a .45ACP (a lot) and I don't want the recoil of a +P spoiling my chance for a followup shot so I am not in your "biggest, heaviest, fastest" crowd. My .45 carry ammo is a 165gr HP Winchester Silvertip which is not +P or in 9mm it is a 115gr HP Hornady Critical Defense. The perfect self defense or military ammo would be one that penetrated about 6" with a permanent 6" wound channel.

Well, yes & no. You are using a 185grWSTHP & the perfect round would NOT make 6" deep wound. A large man's forearm can be almost 4-5" across. hit that in front of his chest & you will disable the arm but not get near vitals. A large, heavy man will have 3-4" of fat & muscle on his chest, hit that & you will not hit vitals, we won't even discuss oblique or 90deg angle shots into the torso. It's why the FBI came up w/ the 12" min. penetration. It allows you to get to vitals from any reasonable angle.
So the perfect round would penetrate 100% from any angle then drop to the ground. Those do not exist.
Quote:

High velocity handgun rounds, say, 1100 fps+, should create more BPW than rounds in the 950-fps range. I think that we give weight too much consideration and not enough consideration
There isn't much diff in temp cav form 950fps-1100fps. You have to get the vel. up, well over 1200fps to see significant diff. Again, bullet design has a lot to do with that. So in the end, I don't think rifle shooters look for anything really diff. It's just as vel goes up, bullet design is even more important to sustain vel. Vel. alone will not kill. Roy Weatherby tried selling that in the 1950s. It helps a properly designed bullet do more work, but there is no magic to HV impacts at what we would term normal vel. of 1200fps-3000fps. The bullet still has to do the work.

dosei 01-19-2010 14:31

Using the OP's "logic" and giving it a twist.

The OP's example is two bullets of the same weight traveling at different velocities...and from that he concludes that speed is everything...

...so let's flip that on it's head...

5.56 NATO - A 55 grain bullet traveling at 3240 fps
vs.
50 BMG - A 700 grain bullet traveling at 2978 fps

Per to OP's assumption, the 5.56 should be a much more devastating choice given it's blistering 262 fps advantage over the 50 BMG...

Ah heck, let's throw one other in the mix...
7.62 NATO - A 168 grain bullet traveling at 2650 fps
(now this just has to be a poor performer when compared to the faster 5.56)

:rofl:

thegriz18 01-19-2010 15:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by dosei (Post 14577794)
Using the OP's "logic" and giving it a twist.

The OP's example is two bullets of the same weight traveling at different velocities...and from that he concludes that speed is everything...

...so let's flip that on it's head...

5.56 NATO - A 55 grain bullet traveling at 3240 fps
vs.
50 BMG - A 700 grain bullet traveling at 2978 fps

Per to OP's assumption, the 5.56 should be a much more devastating choice given it's blistering 262 fps advantage over the 50 BMG...

Ah heck, let's throw one other in the mix...
7.62 NATO - A 168 grain bullet traveling at 2650 fps
(now this just has to be a poor performer when compared to the faster 5.56)

:rofl:

You're totally wrong. That wasn't my logic. I required the bullets to be the same weight. I said speed was very important, not everything.

ithaca_deerslayer 01-19-2010 15:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegriz18 (Post 14577923)
I required the bullets to be the same weight.

Here's as much as I can figure.

If the bullets are the same weight, then the one going faster is better. If the bullet is hard, it will mean more penetration. If the bullet is soft, it will mean more expansion. Either way, at the end of things where the bullet is hitting, faster is better, just choose the type of bullet you want.

But faster will cost you in increased recoil, increased cartridge and gun size, and increased gun weight. You want your handgun to weigh little, and have little recoil.

dosei 01-19-2010 15:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegriz18 (Post 14577923)
You're totally wrong. That wasn't my logic. I required the bullets to be the same weight. I said speed was very important, not everything.

So...have you ever given this a read:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm

Speed can be important...if in excess of 2000 fps. For typical SD handgun calibers, speed only equates to better penetration and better expansion of soft-point/hollow-point projectiles.

BPW trauma is a lot like a sonic boom...it doesn't exist until something is going fast enough.

thegriz18 01-19-2010 15:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by ithaca_deerslayer (Post 14578030)
Here's as much as I can figure.

If the bullets are the same weight, then the one going faster is better. If the bullet is hard, it will mean more penetration. If the bullet is soft, it will mean more expansion. Either way, at the end of things where the bullet is hitting, faster is better, just choose the type of bullet you want.

But faster will cost you in increased recoil, increased cartridge and gun size, and increased gun weight. You want your handgun to weigh little, and have little recoil.

This pretty much sums up my point. Thanks deerslayer.

Jeepnik 01-19-2010 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by JBP55 (Post 14575503)
Popcorn anyone?

No, but a beer would be nice.

thegriz18 01-19-2010 16:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeepnik (Post 14578197)
No, but a beer would be nice.

:cheers:

Gunnut 45/454 01-19-2010 17:10

If I had a choice of the two weapons for a BG take down I'd choose the rifle every time!
Pistols are great for most SD situations! But if you want complete take down damage any high powered soft nosed bullet will decapitate at close range/ blow big nasty holes!
Now if you want rifle performance with out the High powered rifle round go with a pistol carbine/levergun! Same damage as a rifle with out the recoil! :supergrin:

Don't believe me talk to a Vet of WWII/Korea and ask them what a rifle round will do at close range! Ask them how good they were when they did CCQB! And that was with Ball ammo! Try soft nosed bullets!
Of course where talking about "Real Rifle" rounds of .30 Caliber!
:supergrin:


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