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-   -   How to prevent primer 'pull back' ? (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1175577)

ManNamedJed 01-25-2010 13:44

How to prevent primer 'pull back' ?
 
I recently started loading .40. I have a bunch of range pickup brass as the local cops use our IPSC range. A good portion of it is nickel SPEER.

I'm having a high number of instances where during sizing/depriming, the primer is pulled back into the case. I can usually feel it on the primer seating stage, and pull it out, but a few sneak through. I always get a little freaked out when I find a round with a spent primer when I run them through the case gage - hafta wonder if it means I created a squib.

Lately I've been getting 4-5 per hundred rounds. Does anyone have any ways to prevent this? It seems to happen most with the nickeled Speer (which seem to have kinda loose pockets, as the new primers go in really easy). I think I've had maybe 3 in the last 10,000 rounds of 9mm.

I load with a dillon 650 BTW.

Thanks!

bfoosh006 01-25-2010 14:07

Make sure your de-priming stem doesn't have a burr on it, if it does polish (lightly) it smooth with some emery cloth. And there is a fair chance that you need to adjust the die to fully push out the primer, if it is only pushing it out "1/2" the way, it may be causing this Problem. You should be able to see the de-priming stem "poking"out of the bottom of the case (by an 1/8" ) on a correctly de-primed one.

shotgunred 01-25-2010 14:39

your depriming pin needs adjustment.

ManNamedJed 01-25-2010 14:53

The pin extends at least 1/2" past the base of the die. It is 'bottomed out' - so it can't get any longer. I felt the tip and it seems smooth. Perhaps I'll put in a new decapping pin just to check.

WiskyT 01-25-2010 15:37

I know the press is blue and therefore not prone to problems, but apparently Dillion has QC issues as well. My father had the same problem with his 650 ten years ago. They still haven't gotten it right. My Pro 1000 never did this.

Now that the gratuitis cheap shotting is out of the way, I'll tell you what Dillon told my father. Chuck the decapping pin in a drill and dress down the edge of the tip so the edges aren't so square. Just a little bit will do it.

Colorado4Wheel 01-25-2010 15:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by ManNamedJed (Post 14618531)
Lately I've been getting 4-5 per hundred rounds. Does anyone have any ways to prevent this? It seems to happen most with the nickeled Speer (which seem to have kinda loose pockets, as the new primers go in really easy). I think I've had maybe 3 in the last 10,000 rounds of 9mm.

I load with a dillon 650 BTW.

Thanks!

What kind of Die are you using? Like was stated before it's likely a burr on your die. Clean the Die, polish the tip. If it's one of those fancy dies with the floating pin check to make sure that is still working right.

Lee has just about the best decapper around. Simple, cheap, strong, Moves out of the way when you get a Berdan case in there, not prone to problems. If it's a Lee consider buying another pin and just being done with it.
Quote:

Originally Posted by WiskyT (Post 14619205)
I know the press is blue and therefore not prone to problems, but apparently Dillion has QC issues as well.

\

It has nothing at all to do with the press.

ManNamedJed 01-25-2010 16:39

Its a Dillon die BTW.

I doubt its any kind of press problem. I reloaded tens of thousands of rounds of 9mm and .223 and this only became a problem recently when I started loading .40. Again it is almost always a nickle speer case.

I'll try another pin and see what happens. Someone on brianenos recommended filing the tip at a slight angle so the primer gets pushed out at an angle. I'll try that too.

unclebob 01-25-2010 16:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by ManNamedJed (Post 14619597)
Its a Dillon die BTW.

I doubt its any kind of press problem. I reloaded tens of thousands of rounds of 9mm and .223 and this only became a problem recently when I started loading .40. Again it is almost always a nickle speer case.

I'll try another pin and see what happens. Someone on brianenos recommended filing the tip at a slight angle so the primer gets pushed out at an angle. I'll try that too.

The trouble in doing that is you make a point and that pierces the primer. Just take a couple of stokes with a file or replace the decaping pin. This is not a Dillon, Lee, Redding, Hornady or any other die manufacture QC problem. They all could do it do it. More than likely you well not be able too feel it.

dudel 01-25-2010 17:04

Extend the pin out further, or get a Dillon die which has a spring loaded pin which gives a more positive ejection.

http://www.dillonprecision.com/#/con...Three_Die_Sets_

BigDog[RE] 01-25-2010 17:05

I have exactly the same problem with SPEER nickel plated cases in 9MM. Rather than file the decapping pin or replace it, I just culled the Speer nickel cases and the problem went away. It only happened with the Speer nickel cases.

WiskyT 01-25-2010 19:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colorado4Wheel (Post 14619258)
It has nothing at all to do with the press.

But it does have to do with Dillon. I said it was cheap shotting, and it was. But this is a known Dillon problem. It is easily fixed, and I wouldn't say Dillon gear is no good because this stuff happens. I will say that Dillon isn't as perfect as some Lee bashers would have us believe.

JerryO 01-25-2010 19:25

I have seen this occur many times over the years, but didn't know what caused it.

I even had been haveing it occur in my single stage press. There, an occational case would refuse to slide out of the shell holder after deprimeing. I would stroke the ram again and every thing would be fine. And I thought for years that I wasn't getting the old primer out far enough.

Since then I found that some of my cases had primer pockets that were shaped oddly and would result in this.

A possible fix is to resize & deprime on the single stage press. The resizeing lessens the work that needs to be done by the progressive, also.

Or discard the cases that cause the problem.


JerryO

Colorado4Wheel 01-25-2010 19:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by ManNamedJed (Post 14619597)
Its a Dillon die BTW.

I doubt its any kind of press problem. I reloaded tens of thousands of rounds of 9mm and .223 and this only became a problem recently when I started loading .40. Again it is almost always a nickle speer case.

I'll try another pin and see what happens. Someone on brianenos recommended filing the tip at a slight angle so the primer gets pushed out at an angle. I'll try that too.

If the new decapping pin fails you get a Lee Sizing die. I have never had this happen with my Lee Sizing die.

Colorado4Wheel 01-25-2010 19:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudel (Post 14619747)
Extend the pin out further, or get a Dillon die which has a spring loaded pin which gives a more positive ejection.

http://www.dillonprecision.com/#/con...Three_Die_Sets_

He already has the Dillon Die. It seems the more die makers do to solve the issue the more problems they have with the issue.

unclebob 01-26-2010 06:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colorado4Wheel (Post 14620822)
If the new decapping pin fails you get a Lee Sizing die. I have never had this happen with my Lee Sizing die.

I have.

ChaneyD 01-26-2010 07:00

I have both 650 & 550 and never had this problem and I load 11 different calibers. With this said, I would go after the depriming pin and change it out and see if that makes the difference.

unclebob 01-26-2010 08:09

From the Dillon 650 instruction manual.
Decap pin not decaping.
1. Sizing die not screwed down far enough.
2. Decapping assembly not screwed down all the way.
3. Decapping pin bent, broken or missing.
4. Point of decap pin is squared off not rounded (pin gets stuck in anvil and pulls primer back into primer pocket).
5. Berdan primed brass.
a. Berdan primed brass has two flash holes and should not be reloaded.

Glock2008 01-26-2010 08:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by ManNamedJed (Post 14618531)
hafta wonder if it means I created a squib.

Nope, just a dummy round. a squib would be a primed cartridge with to little or no powder.

BigDog[RE] 01-26-2010 09:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colorado4Wheel (Post 14620822)
If the new decapping pin fails you get a Lee Sizing die. I have never had this happen with my Lee Sizing die.

ummm no. Like I said above, I had an almost identical problem, and I am using Lee dies on my 550.

Colorado4Wheel 01-26-2010 09:22

I guess I am just lucky (sound of me knocking on wood). None of my Lee dies have ever done it. .38/357/10mm/9mm. It doesn't seem for all the complication (dillon and others with floating pins) that anyone has really solved the issue either.

kcbrown 01-26-2010 11:13

The Lee sizing die isn't long enough to allow normal installation in a 650. I haven't tried installing it with the retainer on the bottom instead of the top, but based on how far the threads are from the tip of the die, I'd say that approach probably wouldn't work either. This is with new Lee carbide dies.

unclebob 01-26-2010 11:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcbrown (Post 14624549)
The Lee sizing die isn't long enough to allow normal installation in a 650. I haven't tried installing it with the retainer on the bottom instead of the top, but based on how far the threads are from the tip of the die, I'd say that approach probably wouldn't work either. This is with new Lee carbide dies.

It works for me. On the 650 you can put the lock ring on the bottom of the tool head or you can use the Lee lock ring turn it over and use the top side of the lock ring without the rubber ring. Or replace the Lee lock ring with the Dillon lock rings. You only need about or more of one thread showing above the tool head for it too work.

ManNamedJed 01-26-2010 12:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigDog[RE] (Post 14619748)
I have exactly the same problem with SPEER nickel plated cases in 9MM. Rather than file the decapping pin or replace it, I just culled the Speer nickel cases and the problem went away. It only happened with the Speer nickel cases.

I was wondering if anyone else saw the problem with speer cases. It seems to happen almost exclusively with them. I have so many of them though, I'd hate to pull them.

Oh and my worry about a squib is due to the fact that the spent primer being it there COULD be the result of not completing a full stroke. If it didn't go far enough to deprime, then the other case maybe didn't go far enough to get charged. I know it isn't likely I did that, as I'm pretty careful, and I also have the powder checker, but I can't help but be paranoid.

Again, it is a dillon die that has the spring loaded decap pin. It is screwed all the way down. There is no way its not pushing the primer all the way out while sizing.

Thanks for the replies! I'll change the pin and load another 100 tonight and see what happens.

WiskyT 01-26-2010 14:16

In my father's expirience with his 650, it wasn't the case, but the primer that contributed to the pull back. The old Win nickle plated primers would pull back and the new unplated ones wouldn't. I swapped him for some of the newer ones and along with the dressing of the squared edge of the decaping pin, the problem went away. Ii think your Speer cases would be good to go.

Colorado4Wheel 01-26-2010 17:14

It would be interesting to measure the diameter of the pin on your die, then compare that size to other dies as well as to the Speer primer. I would bet they nest together with a nice compression fit between the two. Perhaps the Speer primer is different then the others you normally come across. THat plus the slicker nickle case alows it to suck back in rather then be pushed off. My Lee dies all have very rounded decaping pins. No square edges at all on the ends.


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