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-   -   Armed Robbery: What to do? (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1206833)

MTPD 04-08-2010 08:01

Armed Robbery: What to do?
 
This advice is for those who carry concealed legally and refuse to be victims.

(1) Plan ahead. Decide what you will do if confronted by an armed robber, memorize it, practice it, and if the situation ever comes up, ACT THE INSTANT THE OPPORTUNITY ARISES!

(2) Play "What if?" games in your mind. For example, when you walk into a 7/11 ask yourself what you would do "if" this or that happens.

(3) Bear in mind that during real life armed robberies there are almost always opportunities to take out the robber(s). They usually don't watch everyone all the time. Or they get distracted by something or other. When their attention is momentarily elsewhere, that's the time to ACT!

(4) Carry a 100% reliable and effective pistol (or two) loaded with effective ammo, and practice enough to be confident in your ability to prevail. Confidence breeds success.

(5) Ignore all the "Oh Lordy, please don't start a gunfight Matilda!" nonsense you see on the net. In my police experience, hardly anyone hit by surprise with a powerful COM upper torso JHP is able to shoot back. If they can't shoot back, there is no "gunfight".

(6) Never ever follow orders to lie on the floor face down, or to go into a back room. Your survival probability drops considerably in those situations.

TACC GLOCK 04-08-2010 08:06

I agree, good post.

dgg9 04-08-2010 08:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by MTPD (Post 15088405)
(5) Ignore all the "please don't start a gunfight" nonsense you see on the net. In my police experience, hardly anyone hit by surprise with a powerful COM upper torso JHP is able to shoot back. If they can't shoot back, there is no "gunfight".

Ignore all the Rambo nonsense you see on the net, usually issued by wannabes with no vetted police experience.

The fallacy in the quoted post is obvious. The shot BG doesn't need to "shoot back," he just needs to be able to pull the trigger before dying. Handgun rounds notoriously don't instantly vaporize anyone. Don't conflate "accurate aimed return fire from the BG to you" with "gunfight." If the BG is squeezing off rounds, bystanders, clerks, or you could get shot.

That said, that doesn't means you don't shoot the BG. It means you THINK about the totality of the situation and assess what's the best course of action. Sometimes shoot, sometimes not.

David Armstrong 04-08-2010 10:34

Quote:

This advice is for those who carry concealed legally.
It is worth noting that, as usual, virtually all law enforcment agencies, security professionals, and other folks that actually know something about this stuff disagree with most of the advice posted.

PlayboyPenguin 04-08-2010 10:45

I am going to have to side with those that stated the advice given in the OP is NOT good advice. In my small amount of police experience I noticed that the vast majority of armed robberies never resulted in anyone being shot. Shooting the first chance you get to act during such an encounter increases the odds of someone dying during the encounter. I would add that my experience is quite different regarding someone getting hit and firing back. I have seen someone manage to squeeze off rounds even after being hit on multiple occasions.

I am always a little bit torn regarding how to react to a robbery though. About the only thing I can say for certain is play it by ear and react to your specific situation. If it seems like giving them the money will cause them to leave without harming anyone d it. If they give you reason to believe they are going to harm someone anyway then fight back. The most important thing is to stay calm and react with forethought and planning.

MTPD 04-08-2010 11:45

[QUOTE=PlayboyPenguin;15089174

...Shooting the first chance you get to act during such an encounter increases the odds of someone dying during the encounter....
.[/QUOTE]

Exactly! But instead of it being the helpless victim that dies, it will probably be the armed robber.

LittleRedToyota 04-08-2010 12:28

whatever plan one comes up with, try it in force-on-force.

one might decide one needs to come up with a new plan.

(my plan is generally "give the guy my wallet and do not turn a robbery into something worse"*...though it is, of course, situationally dependent.)

(*note that when i say "something worse", i mean for me. i don't care if an armed robber gets hurt or killed as a result of his armed robbery. but i would rather lose my wallet and live than die/be seriously injured and then lose my wallet.)

PlayboyPenguin 04-08-2010 12:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by MTPD (Post 15089557)
Exactly! But instead of it being the helpless victim that dies, odds are that it will be the armed robber.

It comes down to this, who would you rather see die, the innocent victim or the vicious armed felon?

Being from the "Olde School of Police Work", I don't understand the modern cop mentality of not wanting anyone (including perps) to get hurt. In my day, dangerous armed felons were authorized targets and we didn't care if they lived or died. If they were lucky, we gave them a split-second to surrender. If they surrendered, fine. If they didn't, we dropped them. And contrary to Playboy's experience, none hit solidly was ever was able to fire back. (Not that it can't happen, but it never did in my experience.)

The people we did care about were the innocent victims we were expected to, and did, protect. Unlike some modern cops, like those in charge at Columbine who didn't even try to protect the innocent until after it was too late.

I do not see much validity in your statements. I do not think most cops care of a perp gets hurt. They do not want to see non-deadly encounters escalated to deadly ones. I do not see any evidence to support drawing on an armed person results in them dying more often than the person drawing second either.

dgg9 04-08-2010 13:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by MTPD (Post 15089557)
It comes down to this, who would you rather see die, the innocent victim or the vicious armed felon?

Except it doesn't come down to that. Once you start shooting, there's no guarantee who dies.

Quote:

And contrary to Playboy's experience, none hit solidly was ever was able to fire back. (Not that it can't happen, but it never did in my experience.)
And of course your "experience" is unvetted, undocumented, unproven, and worth exactly nothing as evidence.

6F0 Nick 04-08-2010 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by MTPD (Post 15089557)
Being from the "Olde School of Police Work", I don't understand the modern cop mentality of not wanting anyone (including perps) to get hurt. In my day, dangerous armed felons were authorized targets and we didn't care if they lived or died. If they were lucky, we gave them a split-second to surrender. If they surrendered, fine. If they didn't, we dropped them. And contrary to Playboy's experience, none hit solidly was ever was able to fire back. (Not that it can't happen, but it never did in my experience.)

Is this you OP?
http://www.tvparty.com/spotpix12/shaft2.gif

poodleplumber 04-08-2010 15:01

I'm not sure all of the OP advice needs to be discarded. Thinking about different scenarios in advance can certainly help your mind to work well in a stressful situation. And I doubt that many of us would disagree that being ordered to lay face down on the floor or go into a back room puts us at greater risk of being eliminated as witnesses, and therefore increases the danger level quite considerably and might be a cause to use lethal force.

But since most armed robberies do not end in gunfire, there are certainly a lot of situations that do not call for lethal force and can be allowed to play out. I teach my office staff that if there is an armed robbery, they are to give the robber anything they need to give them to get them out of the building without getting someone hurt. I can replace any goods and equipment that I have, and I can go back to work and earn more money, but my staff members are real people with family and friends and loved ones, and they alone, of all the things in my office, are irreplaceable. Initiating an exchange of gunfire in close quarters at a time when there is still a reasonable chance at ending the situation more safely is not consistent with my commitment to the safety and well being of my staff, or even of strangers.

MTPD 04-08-2010 18:21

Bear in mind my advice isn't for sheeple.

dgg9 04-08-2010 18:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by MTPD (Post 15091679)
Unvetted Dgg? Evidently you missed some previous threads where my police credentials were confirmed.

Nice bait and switch. Yes, surprisingly, someone vouched that you were in some PD at one time. But none of your claimed Walter Mitty exploits or factoids are vetted or documented. The fact that every one of your claims is rejected by virtually every known cop on this board speaks volumes.

PhoneCop 04-08-2010 20:50

I really got nothing to say on this tired subject, instead I just wanted to see my new avatar.

btmj 04-08-2010 23:07

I am not a cop. But I know cops, in my family, as friends etc.

If MTPD is a cop, he sure does not talk like any LEO I ever knew... Not saying he is or isn't, but no LEO I ever knew would say things like:

"In my day, dangerous armed felons were authorized targets and we didn't care if they lived or died. If they were lucky, we gave them a split-second to surrender. If they surrendered, fine. If they didn't, we dropped them."

Even the "old school" cops I know, long retired, do not use language like that.

Chieftain 04-08-2010 23:37

MTPD,

If you are in fact on duty, with that present state of mind, you need to be relieved, NOW! Mostly for your own good, but for the agency and Jurisdiction you work for.

Please, to educate those of us that disagree with you, give us a valid reference supporting your point of view and why this would be the preferred tactics in this sort of situation.

I have rather extensive combat experience. If all I needed to stop a VCA from a violent act was a pistol shot to COM, why do we use rifles and shotguns? I don't trust any handgun, and frankly, many rifles to stop anyone short of a solid CNS hit. And so do every one of the terminal Ballistic researchers I know and know of. That includes the FBI.

Go figure.

Fred

wprebeck 04-09-2010 01:07

Re: MTPD -

One of our regular officers in Coptalk has a quote from MTPD as a sig line; it's "advice" similar to the above, and mentions something about when going hands-on with a subject, the officer should drop the magazine from his gun, and rely on a backup piece.


If that's how that did it in the old days, then it's amazing ANY officers survived to make it to retirement. I'm fairly sure folks like Dragoon, Seanmac, and Blueiron weren't taught/didn't teach weapon retention in such a fashion. I know I haven't been taught anything remotely resembling such idiocy, and if I were, I'd ignore it and likely wouldn't participate in such jackassery.

Oh, and MTPD -

I've seen scars on inmates who've taken multiple hits on center mass from handguns; one that stands out took some .44 Magnum rounds in his torso. I'm fairly sure that, since he was breathing and talking to me, he survived. Pistol calibers aren't the best for stopping folks who are seriously dedicated to trying to kill you.

For those who don't know MTPD - he puts out some very....out there...advice.

MTPD 04-09-2010 07:40

OK, I give up. Go ahead and do like the modern-day so-called "experts" here suggest and meekly hand over your wallet, your wife, your kids and your manhood to any slime-ball with a gun.

dgg9 04-09-2010 08:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by MTPD (Post 15094333)
......and the mamsy-pamsy media certainly won't like that!

Unlike the 70s cop shows, which is the only media that informs you.

beatcop 04-09-2010 08:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by MTPD (Post 15094333)
OK, I give up. Go ahead and do like the modern-day so-called "experts" here suggest and meekly hand over your wallet, your wife, your kids and your manhood to any slime-ball with a gun. Then submissively curl up on the floor in the forlorn hope you and yours won't be executed, and cry for your mama! It won't bother me a bit if you do, and David, Dgg, et al, will love you for it.

Above all, if you do somehow scrape up the courage to resist armed felons, please don't shoot first, fast and accurate like I advise. If you do, you just might drop the BG......and the mamsy-pamsy media certainly won't like that!

I don't think anyone is saying to just surrender in every circumstance, but to use your head. This stuff is so situational that a "kill, kill, kill!" response isn't the best course of action in every scenario....you can't teach every scenario, so why pretend there's only one answer and everyone else is an idiot.

Like I've said before, it's not always "Can I shoot?" it's "Do I have to shoot?". If you are/were a cop in a town with some population density you probably saw a few things and had a couple experiences which could have gotten ugly...you'd also realize what motivates a crook to commit armed robberies. They like the money!!! It enables their addictions...if all they want is to grab a couple bucks and run, why inject yourself into the mix? I'm talking about a citizen, not a cop.

Is a pack of Newports and $40 bucks worth getting killed over?


Quote:

(5) Ignore all the "Oh Lordy, please don't start a gunfight Matilda!" nonsense you see on the net. In my police experience, hardly anyone hit by surprise with a powerful COM upper torso JHP is able to shoot back. If they can't shoot back, there is no "gunfight

The obvious: CNS=DRT, heart=dead in a minute

Dead men kill...go google up the north hollywood BOA robbery or Platt and Mattix.

I've seen a lot of walking wounded...crook on crook shootings, granted a lot were with substandard handguns and ammo, but it's an indicator of combat accuracy. For every guy that was laying down, 10 were running/walking. Don't fool yourself into thinking you can keep your **** wired tight or that some fool who doesn't practice/has never aimed a weapon at a living person is going to turn into a gunfighter....


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