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-   -   Anyone try .45 Supers in new Gen 4 21, yet? (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1428581)

21Glock 06-22-2012 12:49

Anyone try .45 Supers in new Gen 4 21, yet?
 
Hi guys,
I have a Gen 3 21SF rigged up for shooting .45 Super( LW 6" barrel, ss non-captured guide rod, 22lb. ISMI recoil spring and of course, new .45 Super brass).
I love the grip and texture on my new Gen 4 20 10mm.
So much so, that I may sell or trade it in to get a Gen 4 21.
I may be wanting to get the Gen 4 21 and get it set for shooting .45 Super as well as hardball.
I know I would have to get a RSA adapter to use Gen 3 springs and guide rods for the Gen 4 slide.
Just curious if anyone has done it yet.

Thanks!

WeeWilly 06-22-2012 13:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by 21Glock (Post 19118662)
Hi guys,
I have a Gen 3 21SF rigged up for shooting .45 Super( LW 6" barrel, ss non-captured guide rod, 22lb. ISMI recoil spring and of course, new .45 Super brass).
I love the grip and texture on my new Gen 4 20 10mm.
So much so, that I may sell or trade it in to get a Gen 4 21.
I may be wanting to get the Gen 4 21 and get it set for shooting .45 Super as well as hardball.
I know I would have to get a RSA adapter to use Gen 3 springs and guide rods for the Gen 4 slide.
Just curious if anyone has done it yet.

Thanks!

I wonder if you would need any spring upgrade at all?

My experience with the new RSA in my G29SF (basically a Gen 4 style RSA), I can shoot the hottest 10mm loads that will really do a job on my G20SF frame with a stock spring and I get zero frame battering.

I am thinking I will pick up a Gen 4 G21 and give it a try with my .45 Super loads. Maybe start light and move up, I am willing to bet the stock RSA will work fine all the way up to my target 230gr XTP at 1100fps.

21Glock 06-22-2012 20:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by WeeWilly (Post 19118735)
I wonder if you would need any spring upgrade at all?

My experience with the new RSA in my G29SF (basically a Gen 4 style RSA), I can shoot the hottest 10mm loads that will really do a job on my G20SF frame with a stock spring and I get zero frame battering.

I am thinking I will pick up a Gen 4 G21 and give it a try with my .45 Super loads. Maybe start light and move up, I am willing to bet the stock RSA will work fine all the way up to my target 230gr XTP at 1100fps.

I wouldn't try it though without a barrel like a KKM or Lone Wolf. Stock barrel will probably not have the support needed. That's the impression on the RSA on my new Gen 4 20. It's feels as stiff as my 22lb. spring on my Gen 3 21SF.

WeeWilly 06-22-2012 20:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by 21Glock (Post 19120254)
I wouldn't try it though without a barrel like a KKM or Lone Wolf. Stock barrel will probably not have the support needed. That's the impression on the RSA on my new Gen 4 20. It's feels as stiff as my 22lb. spring on my Gen 3 21SF.

I am shooting .45 Super loads out of my Gen 3 G21SF (230gr FMJ/XTP/GD) to 1100 fps out of my stock barrel with no I'll effects. No smiles, no blown primers, not even the kind of extractor rash I get with my hot 10mm loads out of my G20. I will grant you the G21 does have less head support than the G20, but I have not reached the point where it seems to make a difference. I am only using Super brass, so far all virgin.

21Glock 06-23-2012 05:07

Interesting. That's about what fps I'm getting on 230 gr. Rainier JHPs in my G21SF with a Lone Wolf 6' barrel. The Starline .45 Super brass is tough, that's for sure and the .45 Super top end psi is alot less than the 10mm from what I understand.
What lb. recoil springs you running in your Gen 3 21? steel guide rod? Or are you using using the stock springs?

Thanks for insight!

WeeWilly 06-23-2012 09:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by 21Glock (Post 19121025)
Interesting. That's about what fps I'm getting on 230 gr. Rainier JHPs in my G21SF with a Lone Wolf 6' barrel. The Starline .45 Super brass is tough, that's for sure and the .45 Super top end psi is alot less than the 10mm from what I understand.
What lb. recoil springs you running in your Gen 3 21? steel guide rod? Or are you using using the stock springs?

Thanks for insight!

The RSA I started using was a captive 22lb ISMI SS setup from Glockmeister. This was when I was working up. As I have gotten into the 1100fps range I switched to a 24lb version of the same RSA (it feels MUCH stiffer than the 22 I was using, I have no spring rate checker, but it sure feels a like a lot more than 10% stiffer). The felt recoil with the 24lb spring was quite a bit more jarring than the 22 as well. Next time out, I am going to bring the 22lb and see if I can get the softer feel of the 22 and still keep the slide off the frame. With the 24lb spring, my brass lands within 4' even with the hottest loads I have tried.

I don't plan on trying to go beyond 1100fps. I have read about guys going well into the 1200's, but they are usually using longer barrels, comps, etc.

As well as the new style RSA works on my G29SF, I definitely want to try the Gen 4 G21 in this application.


I tried one of those shock buffs on my G20SF and it didn't work out too well.

21Glock 06-23-2012 11:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by WeeWilly (Post 19121552)
The RSA I started using was a captive 22lb ISMI SS setup from Glockmeister. This was when I was working up. As I have gotten into the 1100fps range I switched to a 24lb version of the same RSA (it feels MUCH stiffer than the 22 I was using, I have no spring rate checker, but it sure feels a like a lot more than 10% stiffer). The felt recoil with the 24lb spring was quite a bit more jarring than the 22 as well. Next time out, I am going to bring the 22lb and see if I can get the softer feel of the 22 and still keep the slide off the frame. With the 24lb spring, my brass lands within 4' even with the hottest loads I have tried.

I don't plan on trying to go beyond 1100fps. I have read about guys going well into the 1200's, but they are usually using longer barrels, comps, etc.

As well as the new style RSA works on my G29SF, I definitely want to try the Gen 4 G21 in this application.


I tried one of those shock buffs on my G20SF and it didn't work out too well.

I had the same experience with the 24lb. ISMI spring as being more jarring. Alot stiffer too. Now, most of the time I just shoot with the 22lb. spring in there with Supers and hardball. I have done a chrony on my Super loads and there are 1200fps or better with my LW 6" barrel.
I held a Gen 4 21 again today at the gun show and the grip is much better than my Gen 21 SF, or at lease it is to me.
I'll try sell my G21 for a Gen 4 21 soon or trade it at Ed's Pubic Safety where I got my Gen 4 20.
There is RSA Gen 4 adapter that is sold for about $10 that will allow Gen 3 guide rods and springs to be used in Gen 4 slides so that is an option.

WeeWilly 06-23-2012 13:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by 21Glock (Post 19122110)
I had the same experience with the 24lb. ISMI spring as being more jarring. Alot stiffer too. Now, most of the time I just shoot with the 22lb. spring in there with Supers and hardball. I have done a chrony on my Super loads and there are 1200fps or better with my LW 6" barrel.
I held a Gen 4 21 again today at the gun show and the grip is much better than my Gen 21 SF, or at lease it is to me.
I'll try sell my G21 for a Gen 4 21 soon or trade it at Ed's Pubic Safety where I got my Gen 4 20.
There is RSA Gen 4 adapter that is sold for about $10 that will allow Gen 3 guide rods and springs to be used in Gen 4 slides so that is an option.

1200fps is moving that big old slug.

I am hoping the new style RSA on the Gen 4 21 will be all I need to run my Super loads. If the Gen 4 21 RSA functions as well as the stock RSA on my G29SF, I think I will be done with finding a gun I can run stock with my 45 Super loads. At that point it becomes my default SD gun.

The funny thing about the smaller grips, even though I always seem to prefer a smaller grip when holding a gun in the shop, I seem to shoot guns with larger grips a little better, wish I understood why.

Happypuppy 06-23-2012 15:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by WeeWilly (Post 19122424)

The funny thing about the smaller grips, even though I always seem to prefer a smaller grip when holding a gun in the shop, I seem to shoot guns with larger grips a little better, wish I understood why.

I think your grip is strongest at about 3/4 closed. At least mine is on a grip machine when is was having my arthritis tested. Assuming it is like golf clubs, a smaller grip makes you have to hold it tighter to get a firm grip



Sent from my 300 baud modem

WeeWilly 06-23-2012 15:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Happypuppy (Post 19122761)
I think your grip is strongest at about 3/4 closed. At least mine is on a grip machine when is was having my arthritis tested. Assuming it is like golf clubs, a smaller grip makes you have to hold it tighter to get a firm grip



Sent from my 300 baud modem

Makes sense.

NoJoy 06-26-2012 12:38

Does anyone know what the weight of the outer recoil spring is on the duel recoil spring setup of the Gen 4 21? I wonder if it is the same weight of the Gen 4 20. If the Gen 4 20 can support full power 10mm loads, then the Gen 4 21 should be able to shoot 45 Super without any mods. (Unless you want to swap out the stock barrel for a Lone Wolf or KKM)

21Glock 06-26-2012 12:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoJoy (Post 19133144)
Does anyone know what the weight of the outer recoil spring is on the duel recoil spring setup of the Gen 4 21? I wonder if it is the same weight of the Gen 4 20. If the Gen 4 20 can support full power 10mm loads, then the Gen 4 21 should be able to shoot 45 Super without any mods. (Unless you want to swap out the stock barrel for a Lone Wolf or KKM)

I know one thing, the spring on my new Gen 4 20 is very stiff. It's the strongest spring I ever felt in a stock Glock. If the spring is anywhere near as stiff on a Gen 4 21, it should work with .45 Supers Ok.
KKM says their barrels will work with the new RSA on the Gen 4s with no problem.

NoJoy 06-26-2012 17:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by 21Glock (Post 19133198)
I know one thing, the spring on my new Gen 4 20 is very stiff. It's the strongest spring I ever felt in a stock Glock. If the spring is anywhere near as stiff on a Gen 4 21, it should work with .45 Supers Ok.
KKM says their barrels will work with the new RSA on the Gen 4s with no problem.

Cool. If the recoil spring set-up is not the same in the Gen4 21, then I should be able to swap out the 21 duel recoil spring for the 20 duel recoil one right?

vaquero aleman 06-28-2012 07:21

From Wikipedia:

Maximum Average Pressure is: 45 ACP (21,000 PSI), .45 ACP +P (23,000 PSI), .45 Super (28,000 PSI), .460 Rowland (40,000 PSI).

This is due to the 10mm Auto's higher S.A.A.M.I. pressure rating of 37,500 psi (259,000 kPa),[5] as opposed to 35,000 psi (240,000 kPa) for the .40 S&W,[5

Just thought I would stick my nose into somebody else's business.

NoJoy 06-29-2012 00:41

And Doubletap has a 10mm offering of 235gr. Simuliar weight to a 235gr 45acp/45 Super@28,000 psi. I don't know what the pressures are of DT 10mm rounds; but I am sure they are alot higher than the 45 Super rounds. And you can shoot DT ammo using the stock Glock set up.

ArmyDoc 06-30-2012 17:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by WeeWilly (Post 19120348)
I am shooting .45 Super loads out of my Gen 3 G21SF (230gr FMJ/XTP/GD) to 1100 fps out of my stock barrel with no I'll effects. No smiles, no blown primers, not even the kind of extractor rash I get with my hot 10mm loads out of my G20. I will grant you the G21 does have less head support than the G20, but I have not reached the point where it seems to make a difference. I am only using Super brass, so far all virgin.

Can you share what recipe you are using for these loads? Thx.

WeeWilly 07-01-2012 09:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArmyDoc (Post 19148711)
Can you share what recipe you are using for these loads? Thx.

Of the two powders I have had success with, one I am above manufacturers published maximum load for .45 Super (Hodgdon Longshot) and the other (Alliant Bluedot) didn't have any published .45 Super data that I could find, so I am a little reluctant to publish my load data.

I have no way of measuring pressure accurately and have to rely on primitive (and perhaps unreliable) methods of determining what over the line pressures might be, I think the safest thing is for anyone interested in doing this sort of thing to work up their own loads slowly.

My goal was to get to 1100fps using 230gr Hornaday XTP's out of a stock G21 barrel. I have not actually tested the XTP's for velocity yet, as all my load work-ups first were done with PD 230gr RN FMJ's for cost reasons and I have not had a chance to load up the XTP's. I have shot the XTP's using identical loads (sans chrony) that got me to my 1100fps goal using the FMJ's and no smiles or blown primers were observed, so I am hopeful.

The way I approached the load work ups was to use a KKM barrel, shooting ladders and observing the brass. My KKM barrel does have a little more case head support where the ramp meets the chamber and is slightly tighter in the chamber, so I felt it did provide perhaps a little more margin of safety over stock (kind of an interim step worrying my way up the ladder). After I reached my goal using the KKM, I started over with an identical ladder and worked up using the stock barrel. This proceedure gave me a little more confidence what I was seeing with the brass and primers was repeatable

All my loads have been done with virgin Starline .45 Super brass and I throw the once fired into my normal .45ACP reload bucket.

The powders I have tried and got to my goal with have been Longshot and Bluedot. Powders I plan to try in the future are 2400, AA#9, VV-N350 and VV-3N38.

I shot some Underwood 230gr GD .45Super ammo the other day. They clocked in almost 50fps better than my best loads of my own, no smiles and even the primers looked better than my best loads, so I think I need to keep looking powder wise.

I hope that helps.

SDGlock23 07-01-2012 14:12

Posted my first ever .45 Super load data today. 1089fps avg out of KKM bbl G21sf. I feel there is room to grow on this one. Have other powders too, but I've heard Power Pistol is great in the Super.

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show...8&postcount=69

21Glock 07-05-2012 19:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by WeeWilly (Post 19150813)
Of the two powders I have had success with, one I am above manufacturers published maximum load for .45 Super (Hodgdon Longshot) and the other (Alliant Bluedot) didn't have any published .45 Super data that I could find, so I am a little reluctant to publish my load data.

I have no way of measuring pressure accurately and have to rely on primitive (and perhaps unreliable) methods of determining what over the line pressures might be, I think the safest thing is for anyone interested in doing this sort of thing to work up their own loads slowly.

My goal was to get to 1100fps using 230gr Hornaday XTP's out of a stock G21 barrel. I have not actually tested the XTP's for velocity yet, as all my load work-ups first were done with PD 230gr RN FMJ's for cost reasons and I have not had a chance to load up the XTP's. I have shot the XTP's using identical loads (sans chrony) that got me to my 1100fps goal using the FMJ's and no smiles or blown primers were observed, so I am hopeful.

The way I approached the load work ups was to use a KKM barrel, shooting ladders and observing the brass. My KKM barrel does have a little more case head support where the ramp meets the chamber and is slightly tighter in the chamber, so I felt it did provide perhaps a little more margin of safety over stock (kind of an interim step worrying my way up the ladder). After I reached my goal using the KKM, I started over with an identical ladder and worked up using the stock barrel. This proceedure gave me a little more confidence what I was seeing with the brass and primers was repeatable

All my loads have been done with virgin Starline .45 Super brass and I throw the once fired into my normal .45ACP reload bucket.

The powders I have tried and got to my goal with have been Longshot and Bluedot. Powders I plan to try in the future are 2400, AA#9, VV-N350 and VV-3N38.

I shot some Underwood 230gr GD .45Super ammo the other day. They clocked in almost 50fps better than my best loads of my own, no smiles and even the primers looked better than my best loads, so I think I need to keep looking powder wise.

I hope that helps.

Did some shooting with .45 Supers yesterday with my Gen 3 21SF. Fired one shot and then next round wouldn't cycle into the chamber, hung up between the follower and feed ramp .
Probably need to get some extra power mag. springs since the .45 Super really racks that slide fast and go right pass a round in the mag.

WeeWilly 07-05-2012 22:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by 21Glock (Post 19166707)
Did some shooting with .45 Supers yesterday with my Gen 3 21SF. Fired one shot and then next round wouldn't cycle into the chamber, hung up between the follower and feed ramp .
Probably need to get some extra power mag. springs since the .45 Super really racks that slide fast and go right pass a round in the mag.

What RSA were you using?

Also, how old are the magazine springs?


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