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-   -   Kimber Custom Target II MIM'd parts (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1438809)

MinervaDoe 08-21-2012 16:02

Kimber Custom Target II MIM'd parts
 
I just ordered a Kimber Custom Target II and I've heard that it's internal parts are of a lower quality than they used to be.

I intend to put 500 rounds through the gun as it is.

Then, I'll probably swap out the sear, the connector, the slide release, and the mainspring housing for some harder parts.

What do you guys think? :tempted:

Is this a waste of time and money?

If it ain't broke don't fix it?

Are there any other parts that you would swap?

faawrenchbndr 08-21-2012 16:32

If it ain't broke,.....don't fix it.

glock2740 08-21-2012 17:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by MinervaDoe (Post 19332728)

I intend to put 500 rounds through the gun as it is.

Then, I'll probably swap out the sear, the connector, the slide release, and the mainspring housing for some harder parts.

What do you guys think? :tempted:

Is this a waste of time and money?

If it ain't broke don't fix it?

If you don't have any ammo or magazine related issues after 500 rounds, there's really nothing to do to it unless you want to customize/upgrade it. :dunno:

Ranger45 08-21-2012 17:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by faawrenchbndr (Post 19332834)
If it ain't broke,.....don't fix it.

This. Been shooting my Kimber TLE II for five years. Round count has to be in the thousands by now (didn't keep track the first year I had the pistol.) Haven't fixed or replaced anything on it because nothing's needed fixin' or replacin'.

clancy 08-21-2012 18:41

Why would you buy a pistol that you already feels needs be "fixed"?

glock_19guy1983 08-21-2012 18:58

Replace them when they break.

MinervaDoe 08-22-2012 09:51

Thanks for the replies. Keep 'em comin'...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ranger45 (Post 19333005)
Been shooting my Kimber TLE II for five years. Round count has to be in the thousands by now (didn't keep track the first year I had the pistol.) Haven't fixed or replaced anything on it because nothing's needed fixin' or replacin'.

This is reassuring. I've heard enough people say this, that I was willing to try a Kimber.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glock_19guy1983 (Post 19333357)
Replace them when they break.

This is probably good advice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by faawrenchbndr (Post 19332834)
If it ain't broke,.....don't fix it.

Always good advice.


Quote:

Originally Posted by clancy (Post 19333299)
Why would you buy a pistol that you already feels needs be "fixed"?

I would have bought either a Range Officer or an STI, but neither one is California "approved." The Kimber has a match grade barrel, bushing, frame, and slide. I thought I'd see if it can outshoot my Springfield 1911.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glock2740 (Post 19332979)
If you don't have any ammo or magazine related issues after 500 rounds, there's really nothing to do to it unless you want to customize/upgrade it. :dunno:

That's more or less what I'm thinking.

Thanks gusy. I'm obviously using the forum as a sounding board. I've had my Springfield Armory OEM 1911 since 1987. It's been very reliable. Recently, I put a Wilson bombproof sear and connector into it (as well as a Bar-Sto barrel). My gunsmith tested the Rockwell hardness of the wilson parts at 58, and my old Springfield parts at 52. Meanwhile, there was a broken Kimber sear on his press that tested at 14 :wow:.
It got me to thinking.... since I have my old Springfield Sear and connector, why not buy a few more parts and put them in the Kimber.

MinervaDoe 08-25-2012 14:12

Thanks for your input guys. I've decided to leave well enough alone.

Here's a few threads I dug up on the Internet.
My take aways:

1) A lot of the comments I read state that MIM parts are just fine.
2) It's about $300 worth of parts.
3) MIM part breakages are rare and typically occur during break in. If they make it through this period, they usually last as long as a tool steel part.
4) Kimber's MIM quality issues were a result of the policies of their CEO, (Cohen) who has moved on to SIG.


MIM parts have decent longevity
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=241389

Springfield, Colt, and S&W use MIM parts in a number of their 1911s
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/i.../t-146381.html

Wilson Combat uses them in some of the their guns. There is a quote in this thread where a representative states that tool steel parts are overkill.
http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/...rts-1911s.html

But, if someone wants to replace the parts, here is a solid sounding recommendation:

Quote:

Replacing the MIM parts is easy. Buy a "drop in" trigger kit (sear, hammer and disconnector) from Cylinder & Slide (I have two of their Tactical II kits, one on a Springfield another on a Caspian/Colt, both dropped in and yielded a little over 4.5 pound trigger pulls), fit a new thumb safety (I've used Ed Brown parts, which are partially machined investment cast, but my next one will be EGW machined from bar stock), grab a slide stop from EGW, Wilson or Cylinder & Slide (forged or machined from bar stock), a firing pin stop from EGW, a magazine catch/release from EGW and a new ejector.

You probably also want to replace the extractor as well, again, the EGW heavy duty one is really nice (I have one in that Caspian/Colt).

You could do this in stages, but you're looking at $300 in parts, installation would be extra. Most of the parts are going to drop in without modification. The new thumb safety will need to be fitted to the new sear. There are good directions, but it's a critical fit. I messed up two before I got the hang of it.

As for suppliers, be careful, many use MIM. Avoid McCormick, as they are all MIM. EGW is a safe bet, they don't do MIM at all. Some Ed Brown parts are investment cast, though Chuck Rogers swears by them (there is an explanation stickied in the gunsmithing section).

As for me and MIM, well, I am not a fan, but I'm not a eradicate MIM just because it's MIM either. Three out of five of my 1911s have MIM ignition components, and both my SW1911 and Springfield WWII GI have a few thousand rounds through them without incident. The Smith & Wesson even has a nice trigger pull at a hair over five pounds.
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=241389
Anyway, I handled the gun while I filled out the paperwork to start my 10 day waiting period. It's got a much tighter frame to slide fit than my Springfield and I'm looking forward to firing it.

SauerChoi 08-25-2012 15:45

Every time I see a thread about MIM parts it always makes me ask. Who actually had an issue with MIM parts breaking in their gun? I understand that it may not be the same quality as before but always wondered if anyone had a stoppage due to a MIM part breaking.

glock_19guy1983 08-25-2012 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by SauerChoi (Post 19347311)
Every time I see a thread about MIM parts it always makes me ask. Who actually had an issue with MIM parts breaking in their gun? I understand that it may not be the same quality as before but always wondered if anyone had a stoppage due to a MIM part breaking.

They happen, but are rare. Ive got ten years and 20k rnds into my TLE with no MIM problems. If I were going to change a part out for aesthetic reasons I would go with forged, but generally MIM problems will surface in very few shots therefore after the break in period If nothings broken then I dont worry with it.

MD357 08-25-2012 16:24

If you are going to carry it.... I would switch out several parts and get rid of the Series II BS. Otherwise, leave it alone. I will say that you WILL get a distinct trigger if you get a C&S kit, one that is a step above stock.

FWIW about the Wilson using them on their guns. They were speaking of the 1996A2 which was a "entry" level gun they build a LOOOOOONG time ago. You don't see that stuff in their guns now.

Jason D 08-25-2012 17:08

My early Target model still has the original parts in it.
Come to think of it, they all do.

MinervaDoe 08-25-2012 17:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by MD357 (Post 19347426)
... I will say that you WILL get a distinct trigger if you get a C&S kit, one that is a step above stock.

Good information:

Quote:

CS0104 - C&S 1911 45 ACP Enhancement Kit Series 80 Blue
Our Billet Carbon Steel 1911 Series 80 Enhancement Kit will replace your MIM or cast hammer, sear, disconnector, firing pin stop, and slide stop with much stronger parts, greatly reducing the chance of breakage. These parts are the most critical parts in your 1911. Life time warranty against breakage to the original purchaser on unmodified parts.
Price:
$179.95

http://www.cylinder-slide.com/index....how&ref=CS0104


Quote:

Originally Posted by Charles E. Petty, Originally Published in American Handguns Magazine Sept/Oct 2005
Not too long ago I was very reluctant to talk about anything involving trigger jobs because anything having to do with cutting sears and hammers is a bad thing for the untrained. Two things changed that, the UPS decision to require handguns to be shipped by air to prevent their employees from stealing them and the vast improvements made possible in the manufacture of precision parts by CNC or wire EDM methods. Overnight shipping charges both ways make it tough to send a gun to a gunsmith for a simple trigger job.
Cylinder and Slide Shop now offers a complete kit, including all the parts for a 1911 trigger. If you know how to detail-strip the pistol you can exchange old parts for new. It contains a hammer, sear, disconnector, sear spring and mainspring. All you have to do is take the hammer strut off your old hammer and put it on the new one.
Cylinder and Slide offers a couple of variations and we elected to install their Ultra Light 3.5 lb. trigger pull set in a new S&W 1911. The Lyman trigger pull gauge showed a 5 lb 3 oz. average for five consecutive weights for the new gun. First I installed everything except the mainspring and recorded a 3 lb. 15 oz. average. Swapping the mainspring yielded an average of 3 lb. 13 oz. Not quite 3.5 lbs. but certainly close and it would have probably taken only a little bending of the sear spring to get there.

The parts are beautifully polished and need no additional work. The sear, hammer and disconnector all show the marks from a Rockwell hardness tester and there is a certificate with the actual test values recorded. Ours were about 52 Rock­well: hard enough to last a long time but not so hard as to be brittle.
On the pistol the trigger was crisp and creep-less. All the safeties worked as they should and considerable shooting revealed no changes or problems. But if anything isn't just right call, they can help.

http://www.cylinder-slide.com/dropins.shtml

Rinspeed 08-26-2012 07:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by MD357 (Post 19347426)
FWIW about the Wilson using them on their guns. They were speaking of the 1996A2 which was a "entry" level gun they build a LOOOOOONG time ago. You don't see that stuff in their guns now.




The only reason they stopped using them is because people were calling up *****ing their $1800 pistol had MIM parts in it. Before Kimber came along nobody knew what MIM parts were.

glock_19guy1983 08-26-2012 08:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rinspeed (Post 19349627)
The only reason they stopped using them is because people were calling up *****ing their $1800 pistol had MIM parts in it. Before Kimber came along nobody knew what MIM parts were.

Wonder how many people ***** about the MIM parts in their $50k car or truck?

MD357 08-26-2012 08:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by glock_19guy1983 (Post 19349788)
Wonder how many people ***** about the MIM parts in their $50k car or truck?

A MIM part in the door of a Lexus just isn't the same as a MIM part of the ignition of a 1911.

cciman 08-26-2012 10:20

There is realistic risk, then there is just fear and anal obsession. Significance and meaning gets lost in the debate.

I don't think the MIM parts controversy has proven itself in any clear direction-- thus my conclusion is that because there is no direction, then there is no significance.

Obviously, competitors will try to sell you products and services, preying on this over obsession. Like Lexus, Kimber is very aware of their standings in their market, and very unlikely to risk reputation on a part that will not hold up as intended.

faawrenchbndr 08-26-2012 10:28

I've installed $350k+ aircraft parts.

No one biOtches abou cast frames & slides. A properly made MIM
part is more structurally sound than a properly made cast part.

cciman 08-26-2012 10:31

Not to mention "Polymer"...

GASP :wow: blasphemy

klmmicro 08-26-2012 10:33

Having worked with and around firearms for a few decades, I have not seen any significant proof that MIM is any more likely to fail than bar stock. The hyper concern has been a great point of debate, but that seems to be about the worth of it.

I have a Kimber Custom II that has a few thousand rounds through it. I stripped it down completely at 500 rounds. Nothing out of the ordinary, all parts MIM or otherwise working and worn just fine. Again, stripped a few months ago and still nothing to report out of the ordinary. The only part I have HAD to change in the recoil spring and that was at the recommendation of Kimber, not because of a problem.

The range I worked at was a Kimber master dealer and we had a number of models for rent. I would say about 20 Kimber's of different specs available. We had a couple of issues that were related to the small pin for releasing the firing pin block. The "Death Grip" was required to make them actually fire. Our armorer fixed one (we wanted to see if he could do it), the other was covered by Kimber.

Show me some real data that shows the constant failure of MIM parts in Kimber, Colt or Springfield pistols compared to bar stock parts please.


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