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-   -   Why do LEOs assume that OCers are criminals? I don't understand. (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1446165)

SCmasterblaster 10-04-2012 11:52

Why do LEOs assume that OCers are criminals? I don't understand.
 
Why do LEOs assume that OCers are criminals? I don't understand.

RussP 10-04-2012 12:25

I split this off from another thread so it could receive proper exposure and to keep from derailing the other thread.

cowboy1964 10-04-2012 12:30

Who says they do? From what I see, most OC stops are caused by citizens calling in "man with a gun". They have to check it out.

When you get pulled over for speeding, aren't they also "assuming" the possibility that you may pull out a gun and kill them?

Chris Chris 10-04-2012 12:40

Is it possible that the attitude of the OCer could play a role? It seems to me that some OCers are passionate about their right to carry OC, and confrontational in a verbal, but non-violent way, when a LEO simply stops them and asks what they are doing.

Might a person openly displaying a gun on their hip, and expressing the attitude that many (but not all) OCers seem to have... color that LEO's opinion of things?

Think of it from the position of the officer who has to address an unknown person who has an openly displayed/holstered handgun.

Remington 870 10-04-2012 13:55

Plain and simple if you arent in a police uniform you have no known character of not being a good guy to the general public. most people asume all cops are good guys. and a uniform puts people at ease that arent used to seeing a (gun) out in the open. to most people primaraly in the northeast to see a person wearing a gun out in the open it intimadates them. just my take.

IndyGunFreak 10-04-2012 14:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Remington 870 (Post 19485277)
Plain and simple if you arent in a police uniform you have no known character of not being a good guy to the general public. most people asume all cops are good guys. and a uniform puts people at ease that arent used to seeing a (gun) out in the open. to most people primaraly in the northeast to see a person wearing a gun out in the open it intimadates them. just my take.

I'm not sure putting you in a police uniform makes you have a "known" character. There's plenty of bad apples out there in all professions, including LE.

That said... When an open carrier acts like a criminal (ie.. "Am I being detained", starts quoting the constitution, etc..)... it's obviously going to make most officers think something is up.

GeorgiaGlocker 10-04-2012 15:12

Many in LE believe that only LE should carry weapons.

Chris Chris 10-04-2012 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by GeorgiaGlocker (Post 19485459)
Many in LE believe that only LE should carry weapons.

I don't believe that is a correct statement... maybe your assumption. And, much might depend upon where in the US you live as to what the local LEO attitudes are. But, as a blanket statement I think it is a bit irresponsible.

If you have any .. valid... documentation to support that statement, please share it with us.

jbglock 10-04-2012 15:59

I'm an leo and I DON'T assume an open carrier is a criminal. I know of no criminal that would open carry actually. Now I've seen (never run into one myself) some of the OC rights videos and would assume someone acting the way these nuts do is a criminal. The normal people I wouldn't. As has been said we have to investigate things reported. Don't act like some nut and it will be over quickly. It's not like I want to waste a lot of time on something that isn't even illegal (unless certain things have happened) in my state.

eb07 10-04-2012 16:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by cowboy1964 (Post 19485076)
Who says they do? From what I see, most OC stops are caused by citizens calling in "man with a gun". They have to check it out.

When you get pulled over for speeding, aren't they also "assuming" the possibility that you may pull out a gun and kill them?


Why are there no man with a book calls?

writwing 10-04-2012 16:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by georgiaglocker (Post 19485459)
many in le believe that only le should carry weapons.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^this^^^^^^^^^

writwing 10-04-2012 16:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by IndyGunFreak (Post 19485377)

That said... When an open carrier acts like a criminal (ie.. "Am I being detained", starts quoting the constitution, etc..)... it's obviously going to make most officers think something is up.

WHAT!!!! If you ask why you being detained you are acting like a criminal????

You have no understanding of what the US Constitution and BOR is about. Get you money back from your history teachers.

dukeblue91 10-04-2012 16:12

I never had a problem open carry my guns.
I have been looked at funny but nothing else.
Maybe it depends on where you live.

Nine Shooter 10-04-2012 16:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster (Post 19484942)
Why do LEOs assume that OCers are criminals? I don't understand.

I don't. Honestly I think its a pretty broad generalization to think we do. I will admit though, I've met quite a few colleagues that are uncomfortable with it.

In my personal opinion, I don't think this is because they believe guns should be out of the hands of everyone except for LE, but rather because we have training that instills in us weapon=threat. We also deal with quite a few people who some pretty tragic and irresponsible things with firearms.

Criminals typically do not open carry. If a felon has a firearm the last thing he wants to do is display it where law enforcement can see until he is using it in the commission of a crime.

When I see an open carrier in a larger city or urban area, I see someone who is drawing unnecessary attention to themselves, defeating the ultimate first intent of self defense, to blend in, go unnoticed. There is a difference between making a statement and seeking attention.

A lot of the interactions law enforcement have with open carriers are because we get dispatched to contact them because non-gun citizens are "alarmed" by simply seeing a man w/a gun.

I've driven by my fair share of people open carrying and noticed quite a few glances in my direction like they expect or want to get talked to, just for the sake of confrontation.

janice6 10-04-2012 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by eb07 (Post 19485612)
Why are there no man with a book calls?



You can bet your ass that when a serial "guy with a book" starts beating the heck out of strangers, the cops will be called. especially when a concerned person sees a guy with a book..




I do believe that a person OCing, is looking for attention and is perturbed when he gets it.

Chris Chris 10-04-2012 16:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nine Shooter (Post 19485661)
I don't. Honestly I think its a pretty broad generalization to think we do. I will admit though, I've met quite a few colleagues that are uncomfortable with it.

In my personal opinion, I don't think this is because they believe guns should be out of the hands of everyone except for LE, but rather because we have training that instills in us weapon=threat. We also deal with quite a few people who some pretty tragic and irresponsible things with firearms.

Criminals typically do not open carry. If a felon has a firearm the last thing he wants to do is display it where law enforcement can see until he is using it in the commission of a crime.

When I see an open carrier in a larger city or urban area, I see someone who is drawing unnecessary attention to themselves, defeating the ultimate first intent of self defense, to blend in, go unnoticed. There is a difference between making a statement and seeking attention.

A lot of the interactions law enforcement have with open carriers are because we get dispatched to contact them because non-gun citizens are "alarmed" by simply seeing a man w/a gun.

I've driven by my fair share of people open carrying and noticed quite a few glances in my direction like they expect or want to get talked to, just for the sake of confrontation.

That is the most intelligent and thoughtful quote I have ever seen on the subject of OC.

Thank you for that, especially from the perspective of a serving LEO.

Clutch Cargo 10-04-2012 16:38

We cannot open carry a pistol in Texas but we can open/concealed carry a long gun. I have experience with LE while legally open carrying a long gun and I do feel like I'm treated like a criminal. I've no doubt the LE reaction is due to lack of experience/training on the part of the LE. Texas folks just don't carry their long guns that much anymore.

SJ 40 10-04-2012 17:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Remington 870 (Post 19485277)
Plain and simple if you arent in a police uniform you have no known character of not being a good guy to the general public. most people asume all cops are good guys. and a uniform puts people at ease that arent used to seeing a (gun) out in the open. to most people primaraly in the northeast to see a person wearing a gun out in the open it intimadates them. just my take.

Guns in the open are quite common in Vermont,sometimes folks that move here from less than Free states are not used to seeing them in the open.
Or worse yet folks walking down the road with shotguns or rifles in the pursuit of hunting.

If they don't like not having street lights or curbs.sidewalks and folks exerciseing their God given rights them maybe they should stay in Ma.,N.J., N.Y. or CT. and then they won't have to witness folks enjoying Freedom. SJ 40

Bruce M 10-04-2012 18:08

Seems as if there may be some who openly carry a handgun who actually do not get harassed by the police; or if they have contact with the police, the contact seems less dramatic. I wonder if maybe they have something that is different in their demeanor or age or responses.

JerryVO 10-04-2012 18:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Chris (Post 19485112)
...when a LEO simply stops them and asks what they are doing.

I think this is exactly what the OP is talking about and you said it so nonchalantly. There is no reason to stop an OCer to ask what they are doing. They are going about their business... that's what they are doing. If you observe them acting suspicious that is one thing but the presumption that an OCer deserves to be asked what they are doing is the problem and where the appearance of police thinking they are criminals comes from.


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I777 using Tapatalk 2

IndyGunFreak 10-04-2012 20:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by writwing (Post 19485619)
WHAT!!!! If you ask why you being detained you are acting like a criminal????

You have no understanding of what the US Constitution and BOR is about. Get you money back from your history teachers.

Obviously, you know nothing about me. Asking if you're being detained is one thing. Repeatedly asking, attempting to talk over the officer, etc.. are all shining examples that are easy to find on youtube.

There is a time and a place to argue being unlawfully detained, argue the merits of the Constitution, etc. The side of the road, is not it.

Open Carriers (a lot of them) open carry to get a reaction. When they get it, they cry.

IGF

Caver 60 10-04-2012 22:18

Here in my state I've seen two OC'er's during the last week, each in a different city. Everything went on as normal. Didn't see any panic and no LEO's showed up that I saw. One was in WM. That's the way it should be, as long as the OC person is acting rationally.

OC is legal here no permit required, unless there is a city ordinance prohibiting it. I don't agree with allowing a city to opt out. Too bad the legislature doesn't fix that.

Clutch Cargo 10-04-2012 23:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by GeorgiaGlocker (Post 19485459)
Many in LE believe that only LE should carry weapons.

They had it that way for far too long a time.

Clutch Cargo 10-04-2012 23:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by eb07 (Post 19485612)
Why are there no man with a book calls?

Unavailability of assault books? :dunno:

TDC20 10-05-2012 00:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nine Shooter (Post 19485661)
I don't. Honestly I think its a pretty broad generalization to think we do. I will admit though, I've met quite a few colleagues that are uncomfortable with it.

In my personal opinion, I don't think this is because they believe guns should be out of the hands of everyone except for LE, but rather because we have training that instills in us weapon=threat. We also deal with quite a few people who some pretty tragic and irresponsible things with firearms.

Criminals typically do not open carry. If a felon has a firearm the last thing he wants to do is display it where law enforcement can see until he is using it in the commission of a crime.

When I see an open carrier in a larger city or urban area, I see someone who is drawing unnecessary attention to themselves, defeating the ultimate first intent of self defense, to blend in, go unnoticed. There is a difference between making a statement and seeking attention.

A lot of the interactions law enforcement have with open carriers are because we get dispatched to contact them because non-gun citizens are "alarmed" by simply seeing a man w/a gun.

I've driven by my fair share of people open carrying and noticed quite a few glances in my direction like they expect or want to get talked to, just for the sake of confrontation.

That's a great post Nine Shooter. Thanks for taking the time.

I really think a lot of how a person or a LEO reacts to OC has to do with their mindset or background with guns. Myself, I was raised around guns, learned to be responsible with them and hunt at a very young age, have owned them and shot them all my adult life, and spent countless hours around other hunters, gun owners, and competitors. So to see someone OC'ing creates zero negative reaction from me. I feel no fear of being shot, no intimidation, and the OC'er gets no less respect than I would afford any stranger. Actually, it's generally more of a positive response that someone else appreciates firearms and our Constitutional heritage as much as I do.

OTOH, not everyone grew up like I did, hunting, enjoying the shooting sports, and having many gun-owning friends and family. Throw on top of that the way Hollywood constantly portrays the illicit use of guns and gun violence, and I think it's perfectly reasonable that a person not born and raised in the "gun culture" like I was, may not appreciate seeing someone OC'ing. It becomes a mindset which carries with it an irrational but understandable fear and intimidation for that person, whether they are a common citizen or LEO. So really, I see it as more of a mindset, or conditioning, than anything else. To use terms like "most" or "many", well, those are vague assumptions. I think if you look at the mindset, and how one arrives at that mindset, that will explain a lot of how a person reacts when guns are involved.

I do think there needs to be a little more training for LE in states where OC is allowed. For example, if investigating a MWAG complaint, if it was me and I observed the OC'er not breaking any laws, I wouldn't even bother to confront him. If he's looking for the confrontation, you're just playing into his desire for attention. Rather, I would follow up with the complainant, asking them whether he ever brandished or even took it out of the holster, made threatening comments, etc., and if not, inform them that it's completely legal to OC. But that's me, and I'm not an LEO.

If I got all my information from YouTube, I would believe that all OC'ers are looking to make a statement and engage LE in an argument at every opportunity, and all LE are paranoid and just like harassing OC'ers who are doing nothing illegal. The truth lies somewhere in between the extremes. What I don't understand is why we are so accepting of Hollywood's negative portrayal of guns, and then fight amongst ourselves over the way that invades the psyche of America.


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