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-   -   What do you say? (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1446375)

blueiron 10-05-2012 19:41

What do you say?
 
http://www.kpho.com/story/19750668/f...rder-shootings


What does one say to the Agent[s] who fired and later realizes what he/she did? What can one do for that Agent[s]? What if that were me who fired?

All rhetorical questions posted here for consideration, of course, but it was always a concern of mine when I was in the military, on patrol, with the tactical team, and with the Feds.

Of course, we sympathize for Agent Ivie's family and friends, but what about the Agent[s] who fired? It is my fervent hope that the Agent[s] get help and are able to survive.

What a truly horrible living hell.

Cav 10-05-2012 22:30

Every situation is different. If shot at, return fire and eliminate the threat. It is kill or be killed.

You find out what happened, train others so it wont happen again, and support the agents if they did as one would expect them.

It is better if the shooters dont know who they shot, as in were buddys prior, or for the shooters to see photos, go to the funeral, or talk to family.

One thing you dont want is a cover up like the Rangers, where Pat Tillman was killed. Its more acceptable in the Military, but still a sad situation.

If you shoot first you should have PID, Positive IDentification of a threat target. If shot at, you should return fire .

Anytime you have people in high stress situations that are armed, you have a chance of blue on blue. Even with training you can only do so much.

Counseling can only do so much, but if the shooters did what would be expected it can help.

Newcop761 10-05-2012 23:21

I have no idea what you say.

I simply hope that we can learn something valuable from Agent Ivie's death.
The price was terrible.

Clutch Cargo 10-06-2012 06:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cav (Post 19489801)
Every situation is different. If shot at, return fire and eliminate the threat. It is kill or be killed.

You find out what happened, train others so it wont happen again, and support the agents if they did as one would expect them.

It is better if the shooters dont know who they shot, as in were buddys prior, or for the shooters to see photos, go to the funeral, or talk to family.

One thing you dont want is a cover up like the Rangers, where Pat Tillman was killed. Its more acceptable in the Military, but still a sad situation.

If you shoot first you should have PID, Positive IDentification of a threat target. If shot at, you should return fire .

Anytime you have people in high stress situations that are armed, you have a chance of blue on blue. Even with training you can only do so much.

Counseling can only do so much, but if the shooters did what would be expected it can help.

BS - You are out of your mind! Killing your own has NEVER been more accertable in the military. You sir, should be absolutely ashamed of yourself for posting that.

Kingarthurhk 10-06-2012 07:03

I think it is bovine excrament. Granted you work in the dark, granted it is the "new patrol". However, FBI is DOJ. Holder is DOJ. I don't buy it. My personal opinion is this stinks to high heaven and these guys are being used a political footballs as the end of the year approaches.

Border Patrol Agents, at least in the past, are known for being marksman and hunters. Not for being screw ups and shooting each other. I have known guys that worked that area and been in similar situations, and shot and killed armed smugglers. Nothing like this has ever happened before.

lawman800 10-06-2012 09:11

I hope they get the truth cleared up before they talk anymore. Don't put the other agent and the deceased agent's family through any more preliminary info.

scottydl 10-06-2012 10:19

Terrible situation indeed. A hard look needs to be taken at how communications broke down that led the Agents to mistake one another for a hostile. It would not be hard to do at night, and in the heavy terrain along many parts of the border.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clutch Cargo (Post 19490256)
BS - You are out of your mind! Killing your own has NEVER been more accertable in the military. You sir, should be absolutely ashamed of yourself for posting that.

I'll let him defend himself, but I think he might have meant that it's more likely in the military. Not "acceptable" in a non-caring or "oh well" kind of way. It's just the nature of dynamic battle conditions and lack of communication, which is often terrain-based and nobody's fault in particular. That's how I took his statement anyway, and I agree with it.

Law enforcement has those incidents and the same risks, but not as often as soldiers in combat.

Cav 10-06-2012 12:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clutch Cargo (Post 19490256)
BS - You are out of your mind! Killing your own has NEVER been more accertable in the military. You sir, should be absolutely ashamed of yourself for posting that.

I can only speak from my own service in the Infantry for over 22 years, from Panama to OIF.

Fratricide, Friendly Fire, Blue on Blue all came from the Military. Its a part of war. You can not fight a real war and have control of everyone. Its seen as part of the risk.

I served over 22 year in Infantry from Panama to OIF. Each one had some good lessons. The Gulf War brought about major changes to ID friendly, OIF improved upon with digital tracking of equipment and soldiers, but you have to accept that when hundreds of men are on the ground and want to live you will have friendly fire.

I have had many classes on it, I have tested many devices for the Military, I have dealt with friendly fire.

On a small scale its about the same as being an off duty officer at a shooting and an on duty shows up on scene. The risk is there as both want to go home.

No one goes to war thinking soldiers will not die, no one goes to war thiking there will not be blue on blue unless they have no clue. In the Military its part of war.

From what I was trained about war, negligent discharges are bad, murder is bad, but fratricide is sad but expected. Two you should expect to be punished for, one you should be supported on as long as you did as trained. Why? Because "stuff" happens.

If in a gun fight with a bunch of bad guys, would you be able to call for an air stike on your own location, knowing you will be killed by friendly fire, but will take out the bad guys too?

Some things some people are trained to deal with, some things people are not trained for and they break down and cant deal with life. Most is based on peer and job support.

scottydl 10-06-2012 14:56

Very well put, Cav (considering the topic).

I am one of the few (?) these days in law enforcement that have no prior military experience. When I was in HS/college in the 90's, there just wasn't as much recruiting going on. With the last 10 years of U.S. combat involvement, a large majority of cops are getting hired after returning from active duty. I always appreciate reading about the many commonalities between military/LEO work, as well as the distinct differences.

frizz 10-07-2012 01:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueiron (Post 19489313)
http://www.kpho.com/story/19750668/f...rder-shootings


What does one say to the Agent[s] who fired and later realizes what he/she did? What can one do for that Agent[s]? What if that were me who fired?

Offer moral support, and tell the offer to act like like a responsible adult and get some therapy.

And encourage you colleague to lawyer up. That's just life.

Cochese 10-07-2012 01:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by scottydl (Post 19491452)
Very well put, Cav (considering the topic).

I am one of the few (?) these days in law enforcement that have no prior military experience. When I was in HS/college in the 90's, there just wasn't as much recruiting going on. With the last 10 years of U.S. combat involvement, a large majority of cops are getting hired after returning from active duty. I always appreciate reading about the many commonalities between military/LEO work, as well as the distinct differences.

Same.

4949shooter 10-07-2012 04:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueiron (Post 19489313)
[url]

What a truly horrible living hell.

This. Truly horrible. :sadangel:

Learn and move on.

x_out86 10-07-2012 19:53

Edit....

Clutch Cargo 10-10-2012 02:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4949shooter (Post 19493089)
This. Truly horrible. :sadangel:

Learn and move on.

This. War is truly hell and man is too inclined to make it. Sadly, man will never learn and will never move on (unless moving to start more war).

It will never come to pass in my lifetime, but I wish ALL elected federal officials were required to be veterans. It's a start toward ending the madness.

Damn, just typing this post has me all worked up due to memories I wish I could forget.


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