Glock Talk

Glock Talk (http://glocktalk.com/forums/index.php)
-   Tactics and Training (http://glocktalk.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=20)
-   -   Combat Accuracy (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1446725)

PhoenixTacSolutions 10-07-2012 23:18

Combat Accuracy
 

"Combat accuracy" is a concept that is detrimental to a shooter's development in training, especially beginners. Many shooters espouse this type of "accuracy" and train using it as the marker. Throwing rounds as fast as you can without command of the weapon is useless. Run the gun...don't let the gun run you.

While training to become proficient and "one" with the gun, mastery of fundamentals is quintessential. Speed will come with proper training...it's inevitable...be patient.

Strive to get to a place in your training to be able to have tight groups at speed. Speed and accuracy are NOT mutually exclusive and can certainly coexist. Aspire to excellence. The ability to hit shots from 15-25 yards at speed is also crucial and will translate to faster and more accurate hits at close distances.

Shooting fast at three yards and hitting thoracic is not an art. When training, your groups should be as tight as possible (and continue getting tighter as time goes by coupled with speed), since they may/will open up when you're hit with an adrenaline dump. If you are merely in thoracic in training, you may miss the intended target completely when it counts most.

If your best during TRAINING is all over the place in thoracic and someone else's best is a tight group in the same exact time, the other person has an advantage in a defensive shooting scenario assuming both shooters have the same mindset, situational awareness and response to the threat time.

Many are fooling themselves or are being fooled into thinking that being all over the place in thoracic from 3 yards is a good gauge of proficiency while training. Aspire to be excellent and evolve.

Combat accuracy has it's place...in combat/defensive shootings...since adrenaline will probably dictate as such.

samuse 10-08-2012 21:27

Yup.

I've had the same opinion for a long time.

From what I've seen, the 'combat accuracy' types are generally gear queers who can't shoot.

XS Big Dots are my favorite 'combat accuracy' accoutrement. "Look how fast I can shoot like ***** with these goofy $100 sight thingies!"

Tiro Fijo 10-09-2012 00:28

Combat accuracy would imply accuracy whilst being shot at, correct? :whistling: :supergrin:

Batesmotel 10-09-2012 22:49

Slow is smooth, smooth is fast. Speed is a side effect of mastering fundamentals.

countrygun 10-09-2012 23:52

A concept that has been lost today.

i was fortunate enough to grow up in a place with a LE community that dominate regiona PPC competition. I knew many of the shooters and their gunsmith took the time to teach me the ins and outs of the S&W revolver action.I also had a friend whos was a former Marine and was an FBI agent that went around with the regional "on site" training teams. I have an affinity for the 25yd line:supergrin:

It amazes me to see people "testing" a handgun at 7 or even 12 yards and pronouncing it "accurate" ??? they spend majotr money on guns guaranteed to shoot into 2" at 25 yds, then they go out and shoot a baseball-cap sized group at 12 yards and claim the gun is "laser accurate":upeyes:

These folks would be downright "punked" shooting against some of the regional PPC shooters of 40 years ago at 25 yds.


Our guns may have become better but we have missed the importance of the Indian in fawning over the bow and looking for the perfect arrow.

GlockFanWA 10-10-2012 07:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo (Post 19499510)
Combat accuracy would imply accuracy whilst being shot at, correct? :whistling: :supergrin:

Works for me.

05FLHT 10-11-2012 17:12

Combat accuracy is hitting what you are shooting at. It's not a bullseye competition.

countrygun 10-11-2012 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by 05FLHT (Post 19508363)
Combat accuracy is hitting what you are shooting at. It's not a bullseye competition.


Is that ignorance or an excuse for lack of skill?

Long before his first shootout Jim Cirillo was a winning PPC and target shooter. His results speak for the value of accuracy and the ability to employ it.

given a choice of someone who says what you did, and a very good bullseye shooter with practical training, to back me up...welll...just sit on the bench.

Genin 10-11-2012 19:00

countrygun,
I don't understand why you are so defensive in this thread. It's odd. 05FLHT was explaining to you what most understand combat accuracy to be (myself included).

That being said I completely agree that if you cannot shoot a very accurate group when shooting slow and controlled then you will not be able to shoot accurately in a dynamic situation.

On the flip side, guys who only train in a static, slow pace, all the time in the world, perfect condition environment may suffer greatly in a situation where they need to make dynamic movements coupled with fast accurate shooting. These skills need to be practiced as well. There are fundamentals to both and you must practice accordingly.

05FLHT 10-11-2012 19:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by countrygun (Post 19508619)
Is that ignorance or an excuse for lack of skill?

Long before his first shootout Jim Cirillo was a winning PPC and target shooter. His results speak for the value of accuracy and the ability to employ it.

given a choice of someone who says what you did, and a very good bullseye shooter with practical training, to back me up...welll...just sit on the bench.

You work that keyboard pretty well, lol. I'll take hitting what I'm shooting at over winning a target competition any day. My definition of 'combat accuracy' is being the one who walks away after dust has settled.

As far as ignorance goes, you may well want to look in the mirror, partner.

I'll also add I love my XS Big Dots. There's not a paper plate out to 75ft that I can't take care of. :tongueout:

countrygun 10-11-2012 23:18

actually I didn't think i was "Defensive" at all. I was "aiming" for Offensive, but thanks for the benefit of the doubt.

J/K

I have seen so many folks throw out "patterns" and then say "good enough for combat". I have followed the statistics for over 30 years now and law enforcement stats are keeping to a "more shots, less hits" trend for the last couple of decades. Now I know people like to play with stats but the fact is the survivablility rate for LE has not shown a significant improvement despite the "firepower".

Part of my attitude comes from how hard I have worked on my skills, both speedand accuracy, and I have found that there is no substitute for accuracy especially when you are training for speed. If you train to be accurate at 25yds, the closer ranges, at speed, are a chip shot. (and BTW I have been shot at so I know the effects on my abilities).

I see so much of modern "practical" competition at the lower than national level being decided by tenths of a second than accuracy. It is almost as though we don't want to say "the other guy was better than me" we want to say "he was faster"

I have only seen a few cases of a civillian losing a gunfight because they weren't "fast enough" but I have also seen few cases of a miss winning a gunfight either.

I must apparently apologize for my brusk demeanor but the folks that taught me even less polite than I. Apparently the world has changed since then, but those were folks that went over the hill and saw the elephant and came back to report about it.

Genin 10-12-2012 12:57

completely understood.

broncobuddha1 10-23-2012 10:29

I would say I'm a novice shooter. But I understand the difference here. And while I understand that in a self defense situation that its not a bullseye contest, I keep coming back to the line from The Patriot: "Aim small miss small."

samuse 10-24-2012 19:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by countrygun (Post 19509980)
.... I have found that there is no substitute for accuracy especially when you are training for speed. If you train to be accurate at 25yds, the closer ranges, at speed, are a chip shot. ....


This all day.

I have improved all of my handgun shooting by getting better at the 25 yd line.

ithaca_deerslayer 10-24-2012 20:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by 05FLHT (Post 19508363)
Combat accuracy is hitting what you are shooting at. It's not a bullseye competition.

Sounds right to me, but some took offense at your statement.

An analogy would be hunting accuracy.

My Savage sporter .30-06 kicks hard, has a crappy trigger, and doesn't like to go under 2" groups at the bench, for 100 yards. It has hunting accuracy :)

My Savage 10FP .308 lives under 1" at the bench, but is heavy and awkward in the field.

If most of my hunting opportunities are 50 yards in the woods, I don't need benchrest accuracy. A 2" accurate gun is good enough. As long as it is easy to carry all day and quick to point and allows me to hit the vitals, hunting accuracy is all I need :)

countrygun 10-24-2012 21:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by ithaca_deerslayer (Post 19553464)
Sounds right to me, but some took offense at your statement.

An analogy would be hunting accuracy.

My Savage sporter .30-06 kicks hard, has a crappy trigger, and doesn't like to go under 2" groups at the bench, for 100 yards. It has hunting accuracy :)

My Savage 10FP .308 lives under 1" at the bench, but is heavy and awkward in the field.

If most of my hunting opportunities are 50 yards in the woods, I don't need benchrest accuracy. A 2" accurate gun is good enough. As long as it is easy to carry all day and quick to point and allows me to hit the vitals, hunting accuracy is all I need :)

Do you practice away from the bench?

If you do, do you only practice at 50yds because that is the "average" shot?

ithaca_deerslayer 10-24-2012 21:55

I practise off-hand out to usually 100 yards with my rifles. Handguns usually out to 50 yards.

I don't think I've taken an off-hand hunting shot more than 100 yards with a rifle. The ones at that distance are usually woodchucks.

Pretty sure I could put an off-hand rifle shot, first shot, in a 4" circle if you were to ask me to do it. With my scoped .30-06 sporter mentioned above. Might have to allow an inch or two for the internet conversion :)

I want to buy a national match type AR, and plan on doing more rifle shooting. Iron sighted at various distances, certainly at 300 yards off-hand. Not sure if I'll look for competitions much. Just some local club stuff for the fun of it.

Point being that .30-06 is accurate enough for my hunting requirements, even though we won't win any benchrest competitions.

countrygun 10-24-2012 21:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by ithaca_deerslayer (Post 19553648)
I practise off-hand out to usually 100 yards with my rifles. Handguns usually out to 50 yards.

I don't think I've taken an off-hand hunting shot more than 100 yards with a rifle. The ones at that distance are usually woodchucks.

Pretty sure I could put an off-hand rifle shot, first shot, in a 4" circle if you were to ask me to do it. With my scoped .30-06 sporter mentioned above. Might have to allow an inch or two for the internet conversion :)

I want to buy a national match type AR, and plan on doing more rifle shooting. Iron sighted at various distances, certainly at 300 yards off-hand. Not sure if I'll look for competitions much. Just some local club stuff for the fun of it.

Point being that .30-06 is accurate enough for my hunting requirements, even though we won't win any benchrest competitions.

Do you find that practicing at 100 yds makes a "real" shot at 50 yds easier than at 100?

ithaca_deerslayer 10-24-2012 22:08

I also think my shooting with my 642 snubbie revolver is carry accurate enough. If I take slow off-hand shots at 25 yards I might not get all my shots on paper. But if I do the same thing with my Glock 17, my group will be 4".

What is the carry accuracy I need, and at what distance? At 10 yards I can slowfire a 4" group with my snubbie. At 5 yards I can quick fire a 4" group.

Next to my Glock 17, I stink with a snubbie. I've benchrested 4" groups with it at 25 yards, so I know the gun is accurate enough. Am I carry accurate enough with it?

ithaca_deerslayer 10-24-2012 22:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by countrygun (Post 19553656)
Do you find that practicing at 100 yds makes a "real" shot at 50 yds easier than at 100?

Sure. I want confidence at my hunting distances. Deer walking quickly between the trees, I don't want have to worry about distance, bullet power, or accuracy. I have confidence in all of those things.

So I'd say work on your accuracy and shooting skills, but be practical in accepting a certain level for a range of situations.

I think that what is meant by combat accuracy. A stock Glock may only have combat accuracy compared to a target 1911.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 17:01.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright 2013, Glock Talk, All Rights Reserved.