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RWBlue 11-17-2012 19:49

Trust
 
Talk to me about forming a trust for NFA items.

As I stated in the other thread, I am in one state, my corp is in another. I could have corporate offices still in that state do my bidding, but.....that might be harder said than done.

So, talk to me about forming a trust. What are the down sides? (I know the down side to Corp.)

What is the process to forming a trust?

railfancwb 11-17-2012 20:13

This is a specific situation for each state. You should check with an attorney in your state(s). There could be state law issues if the NFA item is owned by a corporation in one state and kept in or transported into another state.

The penalty for doing it wrong is too great for DIY...IMO




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JBnTX 11-28-2012 11:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by RWBlue (Post 19642473)
Talk to me about forming a trust for NFA items.

As I stated in the other thread, I am in one state, my corp is in another. I could have corporate offices still in that state do my bidding, but.....that might be harder said than done.

So, talk to me about forming a trust. What are the down sides? (I know the down side to Corp.)

What is the process to forming a trust?

What state are you in?

A trust for NFA weapons would be completely separate from any other trust you might be involved with, and would contain ONLY your NFA firearms and suppressors. Nothing else.

Make certain you have a NFA lawyer do a trust specific to your own personal requirements.

Google "NFA Gun Trust" and you'll find lots of information.

..

RWBlue 11-28-2012 12:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by JBnTX (Post 19677690)
What state are you in?

A trust for NFA weapons would be completely separate from any other trust you might be involved with, and would contain ONLY your NFA firearms and suppressors. Nothing else.

Make certain you have a NFA lawyer do a trust specific to your own personal requirements.

Google "NFA Gun Trust" and you'll find lots of information.

..

I did the Google thing before I posted. The real question is, what is the down side.

I found out the down side to the Corp rout is when you move out of state and want to add to the collection.

I expect to continue to move every 3-5 years for the next 20 or so. Will my trust move with me?

What states can I not use a trust to own NFA items in?

And any other down side.

Based on what I have seen I think a trust should be an easy document for a lawyer. Heck, I think I could do it based on what I have read on the internet and I am not a lawyer.

JBnTX 11-28-2012 18:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by RWBlue (Post 19677873)
I did the Google thing before I posted. The real question is, what is the down side.

I found out the down side to the Corp rout is when you move out of state and want to add to the collection.

I expect to continue to move every 3-5 years for the next 20 or so. Will my trust move with me?

What states can I not use a trust to own NFA items in?

And any other down side.

Based on what I have seen I think a trust should be an easy document for a lawyer. Heck, I think I could do it based on what I have read on the internet and I am not a lawyer.

Trust laws are different in each state, and some states don't even allow full auto weapons. I might be wrong, but I think moving that often with auto weapons just might be more trouble than it's worth.

All I can suggest is that you talk to a good NFA firearms lawyer. Not just any lawyer, but one who knows automatic weapons laws and trusts.

The lawyer that did my trust owns several automatic weapons himself and is well versed in NFA law. But, his trust knowledge applies mostly to Texas.

RWBlue 11-28-2012 18:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by JBnTX (Post 19678896)
Trust laws are different in each state, and some states don't even allow full auto weapons. I might be wrong, but I think moving that often with auto weapons just might be more trouble than it's worth.

Interesting enough, I don't want full auto. For my money I would rather have SBR, SBS, and silencers, lots of silencers.

390ish 12-05-2012 13:49

A decent lawyer will be able to draft a trust that will have a change of situs provision. This will allow the trust to move to another state jurisdiction and be subject to that state's laws on trusts. The seems to only be concerned that the NFA devices are legal to have in the state where the trust exists and that the trust is valid under that state's laws. I do simple NFA trusts in Virginia and have had at least one client move to North Carolina without any problems. NFA trusts are not all that complex, but they have to be right and you have to follow the rules laid out in the trust.

The ATF now has examiners that are attorneys whose job it is to read through every trust that comes through the office. They are a bit worried about the prevalence of on-line trusts -- not so much that the trusts might be invalid, they can block those trusts from taking possession until the trust is valid. The big worry of the ATF on trusts set up by non-lawyers is that although the trust may be valid, the people under the trust have no idea what they are doing. More importantly, once the grantors under the trust die the ATF is really worried that people who do not know any better and are "in charge" of the firearms after the grantor and trustees die will just give away NFA weapons or sell them at yard sales, etc. The ATF is not wanting to keep people from having items through trusts, but having a trust that does not provide explicit instructions on what to do when the grantor dies and/or the listed trustees die or are not around is a potential nightmare. From what I gather, the ATF is not looking to put people in jail for having problems with the language of a trust, the seem to be helping people with those sorts of issues. However, I think that the ATF will probably be forced to move with the criminal statutes when the wives or or brothers of people who were trustees under a trust die and they just sell the weapons and put unregistered devices in the stream of commerce.

If you get a trust, make sure you understand it and make sure that whoever might be handling your estate when you die takes a copy of a trust to an attorney upon your death to make sure that federal laws and the rules of the trust are being followed to keep innocent people from having real problems.

Good luck.

RWBlue 12-05-2012 15:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by 390ish (Post 19703302)
A decent lawyer will be able to draft a trust that will have a change of situs provision. This will allow the trust to move to another state jurisdiction and be subject to that state's laws on trusts. The seems to only be concerned that the NFA devices are legal to have in the state where the trust exists and that the trust is valid under that state's laws. I do simple NFA trusts in Virginia and have had at least one client move to North Carolina without any problems. NFA trusts are not all that complex, but they have to be right and you have to follow the rules laid out in the trust.

The ATF now has examiners that are attorneys whose job it is to read through every trust that comes through the office. They are a bit worried about the prevalence of on-line trusts -- not so much that the trusts might be invalid, they can block those trusts from taking possession until the trust is valid. The big worry of the ATF on trusts set up by non-lawyers is that although the trust may be valid, the people under the trust have no idea what they are doing. More importantly, once the grantors under the trust die the ATF is really worried that people who do not know any better and are "in charge" of the firearms after the grantor and trustees die will just give away NFA weapons or sell them at yard sales, etc. The ATF is not wanting to keep people from having items through trusts, but having a trust that does not provide explicit instructions on what to do when the grantor dies and/or the listed trustees die or are not around is a potential nightmare. From what I gather, the ATF is not looking to put people in jail for having problems with the language of a trust, the seem to be helping people with those sorts of issues. However, I think that the ATF will probably be forced to move with the criminal statutes when the wives or or brothers of people who were trustees under a trust die and they just sell the weapons and put unregistered devices in the stream of commerce.

If you get a trust, make sure you understand it and make sure that whoever might be handling your estate when you die takes a copy of a trust to an attorney upon your death to make sure that federal laws and the rules of the trust are being followed to keep innocent people from having real problems.

Good luck.

Sounds like the same problem with an NFA item is sold to an individual. Then the individual dies and technically, no one is legally able to posses the item.

BTW, when I die, I am taking the guns with me. I want to be prepared to be a zombie and take over the world. :supergrin:

sappy13 12-05-2012 21:51

Iv been thinking about looking into a trust sometime in the next couple of months. Iv become very interested in suppressor for 9mm and .22. Is there a site with lists of well known gun trust lawyers for each state? Iv seen the ads for guntrustlawyer.com, but I feel like i would be more comfortable with something local.

How do trusts work in terms of like family members shooting them without you there. Like would my dad be able to hold onto it for me for a short period of time?

RWBlue 12-05-2012 23:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by sappy13 (Post 19704946)
How do trusts work in terms of like family members shooting them without you there. Like would my dad be able to hold onto it for me for a short period of time?

With the Trust or the Corp, you can mark people as officers. Those officers can use the devices without you being around.

The down side is if they do something stupid you are on the hook also.

sappy13 12-11-2012 21:32

So if you set up a trust and had a family member, like a father as one of the officers in it. Could both people put their firearms as assets under the trust, so that if either of them were ever in legal trouble, such as being sued, that the firearms could not taken since they are listed under the trust. Would that be a legal use of the trust, since it doesnt have to have just class 3 firearms in it. My parents are being sued for bs reasons by their prior tenants that they had evicted from their house after not paying for year. My parents expect to win, but My dad has a firearm we would hate to have someone come after in case like that.

I was telling him that I might look into getting a trust drawn up with my christmas funds and he had the idea to use one for that. Not sure who would be a good one in Georgia to go to for that, but Clydes Armory(same as www.policeguns.com) is 5 miles away and they deal in a lot of class 3 stuff, so im sure they would have recommendations.

390ish 12-12-2012 08:20

Make sure the lawyer is a gun guy. I really think the lawyer has to be a gun guy to understand exactly what it takes to have the right kind of trust. There just are not enough correct form NFA trusts out there. However, there are good attorneys out there drafting them. This is an emerging area of the law. Good luck.


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