Glock Talk

Glock Talk (http://glocktalk.com/forums/index.php)
-   Religious Issues (http://glocktalk.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=55)
-   -   Let's write a revised Moral Code. (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1455227)

Comrade Bork 11-28-2012 17:16

Let's write a revised Moral Code.
 
"Morality" is the yardstick with which we measure acceptable versus unacceptable human behavior.

The goal of this is to provide for a stable society, within which we all may flourish to the best of our ability.

I do not believe it is necessary for morality to be based upon religious principals.

I think it is enough that a moral precept either works or not.

The 10 Commandments are as good a place to start as any.

First off, I think the first five commandments can be junked and ignored.

"I am your God, You have no other Gods, You will make no graven images of other Gods, You will not diss me by taking my name in vain. You will worship my glorious self".

Are of any relevence only IF "God" actually exists.

An existence that the religiously inclined can never seem to prove to be an unmistakeable truth.

It is always based on "faith", which is to say it is nothing more than "opinion", since God, if he/she/it actually does exist, does not seem to ever make that existence unmistakeably clear to all.

I believe that Moses himself wrote the 1st Five Commandments for their practical effect, which was to place all authority over the State of Israel that he founded, firmly in his own, personal, MORTAL, hands and keep it there during his own lifetime and keep it there within his own family, the Levites, thereafter.

"King" Moses (in all but name) and the "Royal Family of Levi" that he made supreme over the other Tribes of Israel, who were thereafter, the serfs and cannon fodder for the "Holy" Levites.

So as to C's I through V, scrap 'em.

In terms of "morality" they are irrelevent.

So, the basis for REAL morality is found in the second Five of the Commandments.

Honor your Parents. Do not Murder. Do not have sex with anyone you are not married to. Do not steal. Do not covet things you have no right to.

Failure to observe and enforce any of these latter five are generally disruptive to the stability of any Sociey as a whole.

And thus, these are correct examples of "Proper Morality" and violations of them are "Immorality".

It is difficult for individuals, or families, to flourish if they have to exist in an unstable environment/society.

There is an ancient Chinese curse that says "May you live in interesting times". "Interesting" being defined as things like wars sweeping through your country, famines, plagues, fire, flood, earthquake, and the like.

"Uninteresting" meant stable.

I would add several more.

11. Thou shalt not initiate violence against another.

12. Thou shalt not suffer another to initiate violence against thyself.

(Offensive violence is immoral and unacceptable, Defensive violence is moral and acceptable)

13. Thou shalt not act in callous disregard of the well being of others.

(Such as, dealing in drugs to enrich yourself by shortening or ending the lives of others.)

Who wants to take a swing at #14 and beyond?

:dunno:

Roering 11-28-2012 18:01

A moral code based upon what exactly?

Davegrave 11-28-2012 18:05

http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/...9d855e75b6.jpg

token5gtd 11-28-2012 18:13

You guys are way over thinking things...

Don't be a dick.

Only morality anyone will ever need.

Gunhaver 11-28-2012 19:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roering (Post 19679120)
A moral code based upon what exactly?

Based on the fact that grownups can have a conversation about how they'd like to be treated and how to treat others. Then they can agree to adhere to some very basic rules and follow through with that.

The problem is in separating the perceived injustices from the actual ones. For instance, you might take issue with somebody boinking your wife. That's between you and her, not the government and the guy she escaped boredom for a day with.

Maybe you cussed out your drunk father and crackhead mother because they really deserve it. Why do we need the law to step in and make determinations about the guilt level of every parent? Sounds like something they've been itching to do for some time anyway.

Comrade Bork 11-29-2012 12:32

!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Roering (Post 19679120)
A moral code based upon what exactly?

Ah, Duuuuhhhhhhh!

A moral code based upon itself.

:upeyes:

Bren 11-29-2012 13:17

There's always this oldy but goody:

1. Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked.

2. Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure they want to hear them.

3. When in another’s lair, show him respect or else do not go there.

4. If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy.

5. Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.

6. Do not take that which does not belong to you unless it is a burden to the other person and he cries out to be relieved.

7. Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.

8. Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.

9. Do not harm little children.

10. Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food.

11. When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him.


Slightly melodramatic language, but no more silly than any of the others. Maybe the "power of magic" one, but that just makes it equal to the various religious rule lists.

snowbird 11-30-2012 10:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Comrade Bork (Post 19678932)
I do not believe it is necessary for morality to be based upon religious principals...
Thou shalt not initiate violence against another.

Where does our conscience come from, if not from God? How would Darwinism create a sense of duty which can sometimes lead someone to deny the will to live?

Moral goodness and happiness ought to go together in a reasonable and just world. Good people should be happy, evil people should be unhappy. But in reality, there is no such constant correlation. Therefore God must exist to eventually uphold intelligence, justice, and purity of motives, making good people happy in heaven.

As for initiating violence against another, there's a story out of California today that sort of warms my heart. A San Francisco lady had lost $1000 worth of goods delivered to her front porch this fall. So Miss Yu set out bait, more goods on her porch, and waited. Andy Anduha, 51, showed up to steal the goods (it's said that he also has a rap sheet involving rape). Miss Yu charged out and sprayed half a can of bear pepper spray on him and chased him down the street, brandishing her bokken (Japanese training sword). She citizens-arrested him and called police. Police Sgt Michael Andrychuk said police laughed when they saw Miss Yu's bokken, but they arrested the bad guy and hauled him off. Sgt Andrychuk says folks shouldn't "take the law into their own hands"..."for safety's sake", but citizen's arrest is legal if you witness the crime, and self-defense is okay "within reason" while trying to make that arrest.

Roering 11-30-2012 12:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gunhaver (Post 19679647)
Based on the fact that grownups can have a conversation about how they'd like to be treated and how to treat others. Then they can agree to adhere to some very basic rules and follow through with that.

The problem is in separating the perceived injustices from the actual ones. For instance, you might take issue with somebody boinking your wife. That's between you and her, not the government and the guy she escaped boredom for a day with.

Maybe you cussed out your drunk father and crackhead mother because they really deserve it. Why do we need the law to step in and make determinations about the guilt level of every parent? Sounds like something they've been itching to do for some time anyway.

You have a very naive view of the human race. If this were possible, there wouldn't have been laws in the first place.

Roering 11-30-2012 12:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Comrade Bork (Post 19681749)
Ah, Duuuuhhhhhhh!

A moral code based upon itself.

:upeyes:

Good luck with that.

series1811 11-30-2012 12:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bren (Post 19681906)
There's always this oldy but goody:

1. Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked.

2. Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure they want to hear them.

3. When in anotherís lair, show him respect or else do not go there.

4. If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy.

5. Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.

6. Do not take that which does not belong to you unless it is a burden to the other person and he cries out to be relieved.

7. Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.

8. Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.

9. Do not harm little children.

10. Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food.

11. When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him.


Slightly melodramatic language, but no more silly than any of the others. Maybe the "power of magic" one, but that just makes it equal to the various religious rule lists.

I like these! :supergrin:

Geko45 11-30-2012 13:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roering (Post 19685333)
Good luck with that.

We can't possibly do any worse than what religion has offered.

Bren 11-30-2012 13:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by series1811 (Post 19685350)
I like these! :supergrin:

Those were the 11 Rules Satanic of the Earth - Church of Satan (Anton LaVey, 1966)

Their other rule lists include:
Quote:

The Nine Satanic Statements


1. Satan represents indulgence, instead of abstinence!

2. Satan represents vital existence, instead of spiritual pipe-dreams!

3. Satan represents undefiled wisdom, instead of hypocritical self-deceit!

4. Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it, instead of love wasted on ingrates!

5. Satan represents vengeance, instead of turning the other cheek!

6. Satan represents responsibility to the responsible, instead of concern for psychic vampires!

7. Satan represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all fours, who, because of his "divine spiritual and intellectual development" has become the most vicious animal of all!

8. Satan represents all the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification!

9. Satan has been the best friend of the church as he has kept it in business all of these years!


Quote:

The Nine Satanic Sins



1) Stupidity -- The top of the list for Satanic Sins. The Cardinal Sin of Satanism. It's too bad that stupidity isn't painful. Ignorance is one thing, but our society thrives increasingly on stupidity. It depends on people going along with whatever they are told. The media promotes a cultivated stupidity as a posture that is not only acceptable but laudable. Satanists must learn to see through the tricks and cannot afford to be stupid.

2) Pretentiousness -- Empty posturing can be most irritating and isn't applying the cardinal rules of Lesser Magic. On equal footing with stupidity for what keeps the money in circulation these days. Everyone's made to feel like a big shot, whether they can come up with the goods or not.

3) Solipsism -- Solipsism can be very dangerous for Satanists. Projecting your reactions, responses, and sensibilities onto someone else who is probably far less attuned that you are. It is the mistake of expecting people to give you the same consideration, courtesy, and respect that you naturally give them. They won't. Instead Satanists must strive to apply the dictum of "Do unto others as they do
onto you." It's work for most of us and requires constant vigilance lest you slip into a comfortable illusion of everyone being like you. As has been said, certain utopias would be ideal in a nation of philosophers, but unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately, from a Machiavellian viewpoint) we are from that point.

4) Self-Deciet -- It's in the Nine Satanic Statement but deserves to be repeated here. Another cardinal sin. We must not pay homage to any of the sacred cows presented to us, including the roles we are expected to play ourselves. The only time self-deceit should be entered is when it is fun, and with awareness. But then, it's not self-deciet!

5) Herd Conformity -- That's obvious from a Satanic stance. It's all right to conform to a person's wishes, if it ultimately benefits you. But only fools follow along with the herd, letting an impersonal entity dictate to you. The key is to choose a master wisely instead of being enslaved by the whims of many.

6) Lack of Perspective -- Again, this one can lead to a lot of pain for a Satanist. You must never lose sight of who and what you are, and what a threat you can be, by your very existence. We are making history right now, everyday. Always keep the wider historical and social picture in mind. That is an important key to both Lesser and Greater Magic. See the patterns and fit the things together as you want the pieces to fall into place. So not be swayed herd constraints--know that you are working on another level entirely from the rest of the world.

7) Forgetfulness of Past Orthodoxies -- Be aware that this one of the keys to brainwashing people into accepting something as "new" and "different", when in reality it's something that was once widely accepted but is now presented in a new package. We are expected to rave about the genius of the "creator" and forget the original. This makes for a disposable society.

8) Counterproductive Pride -- The first word is important. Pride is great up to the point you begin to throw out the baby with the bath water. The rule of Satanism is if it works for you, great. When it stops working for you, when you've painted yourself into a corner and the only way out is to say, "I'm sorry, I made a mistake, I wish we could compromise somehow," then do it

9) Lack of Aesthetics -- This is the physical application of the Balance Factor. It is important in Lesser Magic and should be cultivated. It is obvious that no one can collect any money off it most of the tome so it is discouraged in a consumer society, but is an essential Satanic tool and must be applied for magical effectiveness. It's not what's supposed to be pleasing--it's what is. Aesthetics is a highly personal thing, reflective of one's own nature, but there are universally pleasing and harmonious configurations that should not be denied.
It is fairly questionable whether the CoS really is a religion, since they don't actually believe any supernatural being exist, including "satan."

JBnTX 11-30-2012 13:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geko45 (Post 19685585)

We can't possibly do any worse than what religion has offered.


Yes we can, and we have.
We've done a lot worse than what God had planned for Mankind.

The world we live in today is a direct result of man turning away from God.
God could have done a lot better job, if only we would have let him.

..

cowboywannabe 11-30-2012 13:53

as you said, the first 5 are all "i am god, love me or else".....the next 5 are the morality based ideas....

Bren 11-30-2012 13:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by JBnTX (Post 19685655)
Yes we can, and we have.
We've done a lot worse than what God had planned for Mankind.

The world we live in today is a direct result of man turning away from God.
God could have done a lot better job, if only we would have let him.

..

So your point of view is that men are so powerful that they can thwart the plans of god? Cool. But if that's true, why are we supposed to worship him?

Geko45 11-30-2012 14:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by JBnTX (Post 19685655)
Yes we can, and we have. We've done a lot worse than what God had planned for Mankind.

The world we live in today is a direct result of man turning away from God. God could have done a lot better job, if only we would have let him.

You sure about that?

Quote:

Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

1 Samuel 15:2-3

series1811 11-30-2012 14:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bren (Post 19685643)
Those were the 11 Rules Satanic of the Earth - Church of Satan (Anton LaVey, 1966)

Okay, so we just don't tell anybody that. :supergrin:

cowboywannabe 11-30-2012 14:28

i gotta giggle when i read .....God will slay his ass.....

Comrade Bork 12-02-2012 18:52

!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by snowbird (Post 19685050)
Where does our conscience come from, if not from God? How would Darwinism create a sense of duty which can sometimes lead someone to deny the will to live?

So, you can prove God exists?

If not, how do you "know" "conscience" "comes from" a God you cannot prove exists?

I was raised a Christian. I was taught all 10 Commandments.

Once I recognized that the first five C's were bulldookey, intended to manipulate me for the benefit of the Shamans, (as it was in the days of "King" Moses and still is to this very day) I just stuck with the final Five C's that do have moral value and they are enough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by snowbird (Post 19685050)
Moral goodness and happiness ought to go together in a reasonable and just world. Good people should be happy, evil people should be unhappy. But in reality, there is no such constant correlation. Therefore God must exist to eventually uphold intelligence, justice, and purity of motives, making good people happy in heaven.

So, you can also prove heaven exists?

If not, then how can you "know" what any of us are going to actually find after our own, individual, deaths? :dunno:

Heaven and Hell are just part of the scam. :steamed:

Carrot. Stick.

Good Cop. Bad Cop.

Loving God. Dat' nasty debbel.

If you cannot manipulate the marks with promises of a better life after this mortal existence, then scare the hell out of them.

Whatever works to keep the collecton plate full and keep the shamans from having to make an honest living.

:upeyes:

Comrade Bork 12-02-2012 18:58

!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Roering (Post 19685333)
Good luck with that.

Morality is like the US Dollar. :dunno:

It has value because we all agree that it has value. :wavey:

If we did not agree that it has value, it would only be not-terribly-good toilet paper.

Morality does not have to be "backed" by anything but our mutual agreement that it works and we all agree to abide by it.

And punish those who do not abide by it. :steamed:

Comrade Bork 12-02-2012 19:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by JBnTX (Post 19685655)
Yes we can, and we have.
We've done a lot worse than what God had planned for Mankind.

The world we live in today is a direct result of man turning away from God.
God could have done a lot better job, if only we would have let him.

..

"Religion" was invented to provide political power and wealth to the shamans.

It is the only reason "Religion" exists.

"Religion" has nothing to do with "God".

Unless, of course, you can prove "God" actually exists? :dunno:

happyguy 12-02-2012 21:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Comrade Bork (Post 19693507)
"Religion" was invented to provide political power and wealth to the shamans.

It is the only reason "Religion" exists.

"Religion" has nothing to do with "God".

Unless, of course, you can prove "God" actually exists? :dunno:

That is a narrow view of spirituality considering religion exists in many forms in every corner of the world.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy :)

Comrade Bork 12-03-2012 07:33

!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by happyguy (Post 19694029)
That is a narrow view of spirituality considering religion exists in many forms in every corner of the world.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy :)

The fact that spirituality is so widespread is simply because we have been actively conditioned to accept it as fact when it is not fact; it is merely opinion. :upeyes:

A "widespread opinion" still does not make the opinion fact. :faint:

Always has been, is now, and forevermore shall be, opinion.

Amen. :dunno:

Animal Mother 12-03-2012 08:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by token5gtd (Post 19679170)
You guys are way over thinking things...

Don't be a dick.

Only morality anyone will ever need.

From two of our greatest modern philosophers, the foundation of a true morality:

Hey, hey, hey ó don't be mean. We don't have to be mean. 'Cause, remember: no matter where you go... there you are.

and

Be nice until it's time to not be nice.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 15:08.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright ©2013, Glock Talk, All Rights Reserved.