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-   -   Accepatable accuracy with carry handle sights? (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1457200)

collim1 12-11-2012 19:51

Accepatable accuracy with carry handle sights?
 
Rock River Arms A4 20" shooting Hornady Steel Training 55FMJ BTHP @ 100yds from a sandbag.

I was getting 4in groups. What would be considered good? I wasn't exactly happy with that.

bigmoney890 12-11-2012 20:00

Good is a relative term, but i'd say good would be around 1.5 MOA which would equate to about 1.5" at 100yards. Maybe your gun just doesn't like that round? I've generally heard good things about RRA's accuracy. Maybe buy a could different boxes of all different types of bullet weights and manufacturers and see if you can get your group down some.

Let us know what you can get in down to!

faawrenchbndr 12-11-2012 20:22

Ammo
Sights
Shooter
Target

All play a part. 3" is rather normal with off the shelf ammo.
Most shooters will get 1-1.5" groups with a typical scope.
I'm not familiar with your skill set, but I would say your grouping
is on par for a new shooter.

Magelk 12-11-2012 20:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigmoney890 (Post 19725219)
Good is a relative term, but i'd say good would be around 1.5 MOA which would equate to about 1.5" at 100yards. Maybe your gun just doesn't like that round? I've generally heard good things about RRA's accuracy. Maybe buy a could different boxes of all different types of bullet weights and manufacturers and see if you can get your group down some.

Let us know what you can get in down to!


With iron sights, that be really really good.:shocked:

Matthew Courtney 12-11-2012 20:51

We have tested Hornady Steel Match in a S&W Sport and a Colt 6920. They shot over 3 moa with 3 of the 4 groups fired. Those rifles average about 1 moa and 1.5 moa respectively with the 8 loads that they like best, so I think it is fair to say that the Hornady steel match may not be the most accurate ammo. Here is a link to our data- http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fb...e=3&permPage=1

bigmoney890 12-11-2012 21:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magelk (Post 19725383)
With iron sights, that be really really good.:shocked:


oops. :embarassed:

collim1 12-11-2012 21:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthew Courtney (Post 19725400)
so I think it is fair to say that the Hornady steel match may not be the most accurate ammo. Here is a link to our data- http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fb...e=3&permPage=1

I have suspected the ammo is not the most accurate ammo out there, but it is at the moment THE BEST ammo as it is free, supplied by my LE agency. Some of the guys reported better accuracy with the Federal AE223 they used to supply, but they bought a pallet of the Hornady as they got a better deal on it.

Only SWAT guys are allowed to carry rifles on patrol, I was just tagging along with my personal AR to get some trigger time with free ammo this morning.

And I am new to AR's, this is my first AR and I've only had it a few weeks, this was the third time I have shot it.

The good news is it has been 100% reliable for over a thousand rounds. It got 500rds through it today.

MajorD 12-11-2012 21:38

With premium match grade ammo a good quality iron sighted ad can shoot under minute of angle in the hands of a skilled shooter.
At camp perry national matches it is not unheard of for top shooters with iron sights to shoot groups under 5 inches at 600 yards.
At 100 yards an iron sight rifle ( again given a top quality rifle with premium ammo) sub 1 inch groups are possible. It takes lots of practice and trying different ammo( usually hand loads) to get there. I have personally witnessed a top shooter shoot a sub 2 inch group with irons at 300 yards

MajorD 12-11-2012 21:41

With your combination of ammo you should be able to approach under 3 inches with irons.

MrMurphy 12-12-2012 06:43

A typical ironsighted AR, a properly built one to gov't specs is still only expected to be a 2-3 MOA rifle.

While your groups aren't pretty, as you said, you're new to the AR. I could probably do better, but I've been shooting irons of all types for nearly thirty years, and the AR platform or related (M1, M14, M1 carbine, M249, M240) for anywhere from 5-20 years, so I'm quite familiar with them.

Given a good lot of ammo, properly built rifle and a decent shooter, 1-2 MOA is pretty good for most guys with irons.

Using a match built rifle, a special small aperature, handloaded, heavy long bullets single loaded, a guy at Camp Perry shot minute of angle at 1,000 yards with an AR.

That's a 10" group at 1,000 yards. Still inside the chest of an average man.

Scopes don't help you shoot better, they reduce the complexity of what's going on (single focal plane) and help you SEE better. Back in the day, guys in the national/international shooting comps with irons and good eyesight did some insane things with rifles and irons. Quigley Down Under is a movie, but not far off what some guys pulled off.

Gunnut 45/454 12-12-2012 10:49

Yep better ammo might tighen that up to 2-3" but 4" at 100 is not bad. On a good day I can average around 2.5" but the eyes just are not what they use to be!:supergrin:

fnfalman 12-12-2012 11:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magelk (Post 19725383)
With iron sights, that be really really good.:shocked:

With iron sights AND generic ball ammo? That's damn good!!!

cowboy1964 12-12-2012 15:08

Seeing better = shooting better, assuming I do my other parts correctly.

Big Bird 12-12-2012 15:57

Its hard to say as you have no baseline for that rifle and that load. Could be really good could be pretty mediocre.

Nobody is going to hold an iron sighted rifle to 1 MOA across the course. Not even a match rifle with match sights shooting match ammo. The 10 ring on an NRA HP target is about 2 MOA and the X ring is about 1 MOA. In ten years of shooting at hundreds of matches, regional matches, Rocky Mountain Long Range chapmionships, and Camp Perry I've never ever seen a perfect score of 800 points which would mean the person held the rifle to 2 MOA for 80 shots--certainly not any perfect x counts.

Now I've cleaned a stage at 200, 300 and 600 yards before where I shot 200 out of 200 possible points. And I've seen a few people shoot a perfect 20 count X ring in a given stage of a match. But we are talking REALLY rarified air here and not something the average person could do and frankly the top rifle shots in the country could not repeat that performance any time they wanted to.

You don't need to take my word for any of this. The scores of the National Highpower Matches are published for all to see on the NRA competitions website. The dimensions of the NRA HP targets are available for all to examine. Show me a perfect score? Ever? When you do that means that guy held his rifle to 2 MOA. Perfect X count? That means he held it to 1 MOA. Never been done that I've seen in the history of the sport.

collim1 12-12-2012 16:35

Thanks for the replies. I wasn't expecting MOA groups, just thought I should be able to get tighter than 4". 4" was my best, I certainly shot some bigger than that.

I need to put a scope on it and see what she's capable of.

What's a good match load for a 20" AR with a 1:9 barrel?

Matthew Courtney 12-12-2012 16:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by collim1 (Post 19728002)
Thanks for the replies. I wasn't expecting MOA groups, just thought I should be able to get tighter than 4". 4" was my best, I certainly shot some bigger than that.

I need to put a scope on it and see what she's capable of.

What's a good match load for a 20" AR with a 1:9 barrel?

69gr SMK aka Sierra Match King.

Batesmotel 12-12-2012 17:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gunnut 45/454 (Post 19726880)
Yep better ammo might tighen that up to 2-3" but 4" at 100 is not bad. On a good day I can average around 2.5" but the eyes just are not what they use to be!:supergrin:

With my colt my groups have gone from 1-2 inch to 3-4 inch. Gun hasn't changed, my eyes have. :steamed:

smokin762 12-12-2012 17:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Batesmotel (Post 19728118)
With my colt my groups have gone from 1-2 inch to 3-4 inch. Gun hasn't changed, my eyes have. :steamed:


I could tell my groups have been changing lately. Last week, I went to get my eye’s checked. Yep, I need new glasses.

The interesting thing is, on the sheet of paper they had me fill out before my eye exam, it had a place for you to fill out what your hobbies are and what you need your glasses tailored around.

This would be nice for target shooting and gun matches if needed.

Magelk 12-12-2012 17:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magelk (Post 19725383)
With iron sights, that be really really good.:shocked:

Quote:

Originally Posted by fnfalman (Post 19726971)
With iron sights AND generic ball ammo? That's damn good!!!


Really really super damn good!!!!

MarkCO 12-12-2012 18:18

Hornady Steel Match is NOT generic ball ammo. While my handloads are all under 1 MOA for 5 shots, the Steel match is running about 1.5 MOA in my ARs and nothing worse than 2.2 MOA.

A mil-spec set of sights are going to open that up some until you have a lot of trigger time and learn the techniques. The top Iron sight shooters are using filed down, aftermarket or globe sights with precision inserts to increase the repeatabilty of the sighting system.

There are not a lot of people that can hold better than 1 MOA and few rifles that shoot better than 1 MOA. Add that together with stack-up and most people are going to be shooting 3 to 4 MOA for groups of 5 or more rounds.

You are doing fine for staritng out. :cheers:


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