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-   -   What spring for Glock 20SF?? (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1467979)

gatorbait69 01-28-2013 09:51

What spring for Glock 20SF??
 
Hey guys, looking for some help. I just got a 20SF and ordered a bunch of 180 gr XTP from underwood. Going to run that pretty exclusively and possibly some 165 gr Gold Dots from underwood.

What RSA should I be using? I shot it yesterday and it feed and felt fine.

I've read alot about keeping stock.

I Shoot Guns 01-28-2013 16:55

The Glock factory spring for the 10mm is made for 10mm.


Leave it.

cowboywannabe 01-28-2013 16:57

i prefer the 20 pound recoil spring and guide rod assy from either glock meister or lone wolff.

Slateman 01-29-2013 06:25

Be forewarned, Glockmeister is pretty slamed right now.

Arc Angel 01-29-2013 06:44

The standard weight 17# recoil spring will be fine. Personally, and for your described use, I wouldn't use any spring heavier than 19#'s - Especially not with any of the factory's current extractors.

Screw, 'stock'! I run vastly superior Wolff Gunsprings' NP3-coated, non-captured, steel rods; and standard weight, (17#) Wolff springs in both of my G-21's. As a result my polymer frames vibrate far less whenever I fire; and this large caliber Glock - that has the same frame size as your pistol - smooths right out. :thumbsup:

gatorbait69 01-30-2013 09:14

Okay, so 3 different folks with 3 different suggestions. LOL!!

I'm more confused now. I will just leave it and continue to read posts and see if anything strikes me differently. I like the idea of less felt recoil only because that will be better for accuracy.

Any more suggestions??

MarineHawk 01-30-2013 10:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by gatorbait69 (Post 19929217)
Okay, so 3 different folks with 3 different suggestions. LOL!!

I'm more confused now. I will just leave it and continue to read posts and see if anything strikes me differently. I like the idea of less felt recoil only because that will be better for accuracy.

Any more suggestions??

I have the:
22-lb Tungsten Competition Recoil Spring for Glocks:
http://glockstore.com/index.php?tpl=pgroup_descrip&pid=7685

I don't even know for certain who makes it. But it works perfectly for me, withouto a single FTF. I have mine paired with a 6" KKM barrel and fire mostly things like 200gr bulets at 1,150+fps or 180gr bullets at 1,350+ fps. I lighter spring may work better for lighter loads, but I just shoot my 40S&Ws when I don't want to shoot full-bore 10mm rounds.

I agree with the reviews on that link about the recoil-reduction. Mine is a Gen3 G20SF. I don't know how those springs work on a Gen4 vs. the stock spring and you need some adapter ring to make it work on at Gen4.

Slateman 01-30-2013 10:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by gatorbait69 (Post 19929217)
Okay, so 3 different folks with 3 different suggestions. LOL!!

I'm more confused now. I will just leave it and continue to read posts and see if anything strikes me differently. I like the idea of less felt recoil only because that will be better for accuracy.

Any more suggestions??

20lb spring with SS rod. Keep the stock RSA. Shoot for yourself and decide.

dm1906 01-30-2013 10:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by gatorbait69 (Post 19929217)
Okay, so 3 different folks with 3 different suggestions. LOL!!

I'm more confused now. I will just leave it and continue to read posts and see if anything strikes me differently. I like the idea of less felt recoil only because that will be better for accuracy.

Any more suggestions??

A heavier spring won't reduce "felt recoil". Most often, it will increase it.

MarineHawk 01-30-2013 10:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by dm1906 (Post 19929438)
A heavier spring won't reduce "felt recoil". ...

With the hotter loads I shoot, it seems to. But I can't be sure because at the same time, I added a tungsten rod, which adds more wieght up front. Together though, the definitely make it easier and quicker to shoot.

RYT 2BER 01-30-2013 21:15

I'm using the 22lb in my g20 but I'm thinking of dropping down to the 20...

MarineHawk 01-31-2013 14:55

Also, I failed to mention, and take it for what you think it's worth, I got a stiffer spring for shooting the hot stuff (all I shoot in my 10mm) in part because of Tim Sundle's comments about such ammo:

"If you are firing this 10mm ammo from an autoloader and experience high extreme spreads in velocity, it is not the ammo. Here is why and how to remedy the situation.
Full power 10mm ammo has always generated enough recoil and pressure to require a pretty stiff recoil spring in your handgun - this of course depends on several variables such as your slide weight, etc. When the cartridge fires, it generates enough pressure/recoil to prematurely open your breech face in some guns. When this happens, the opening breech face has an effect on the burn rate of the powder. This can result in some fairly high extreme spreads in velocity. If you are experiencing extreme velocity spreads of more than 50 fps, simply install a stiffer recoil spring. For example, I have an original Colt Delta Elite. This gun with the factory spring runs extreme spreads of about 35fps with both of these 10mm loads. I am happy with 35 fps, so I leave the Delta Elite as is. I also have a custom built Para Ordinance with a Nowlin barrel. It runs extreme spreads of about 70 fps with its original recoil spring. When I install a spring that is 4 lbs stiffer, the extreme spread drops to about 35 fps. The new Glock model 20 comes with a recoil spring that allows the breech face to open too soon and my new Glock model 20 will get extreme spreads of about 100fps with the factory spring installed. When I go to a stiffer recoil spring, the extreme spreads drop to about 50 fps in my new Glock model 20. Of course none of this will be an issue in a revolver. None of this will be an issue in real life either, as these high extreme spreads don't hurt accuracy or function. However, I mention this because if you are like me and want things to be as correct as possible, I have outlined the problem and the solution. The industry fixed all these problems initially, by watering down the 10mm ammo over the last several years. The watered down 10mm ammo does not generate the pressure/recoil to open the breech face early. If you want the full powered 10mm ammo we make, you simply need to tweak your pistol. Or just realize that you are getting some fairly high extreme spreads and ignore it or live with it. It's not hurting any thing in reality." https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...t_detail&p=114

Any Cal. 01-31-2013 15:48

I've read that quote, but have seen things work differently several times, so don't think it holds water. I also don't see how it is physically possible for the breech to open under pressure unless the extractor overrides, and then you would have a jam-o-matic.

In my food for thought thread in the 10mm reloading forum, sd dropped quite a bit with heavier loads. In the 10mm recoil spring video there was no clear trend either way using hot ammo. If the breech caused the velocity swings there should be some sort of indication in the brass, like it stretching .1" or a bulged casehead or a broken shell, since we are talking about the slide retreating a significant amount while under pressure.

A better test would be one that showed sd dropping as you went from firing without recoil spring, to stock spring, to heavy spring, to holding the breech closed, or at least a clear delineation between inadequate and proper support.

MarineHawk 01-31-2013 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Any Cal. (Post 19934444)
I've read that quote, but have seen things work differently several times, so don't think it holds water. I also don't see how it is physically possible for the breech to open under pressure unless the extractor overrides, and then you would have a jam-o-matic.

In my food for thought thread in the 10mm reloading forum, sd dropped quite a bit with heavier loads. In the 10mm recoil spring video there was no clear trend either way using hot ammo. If the breech caused the velocity swings there should be some sort of indication in the brass, like it stretching .1" or a bulged casehead or a broken shell, since we are talking about the slide retreating a significant amount while under pressure.

A better test would be one that showed sd dropping as you went from firing without recoil spring, to stock spring, to heavy spring, to holding the breech closed, or at least a clear delineation between inadequate and proper support.

Thanks for the feedback Any Cal. You may be correct. One way to exclude the auto's operation would be to try them from a revolver or rifle or do what these guys did: http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/10mm.html

I have been chomping at the bit to chrono a bunch of 10mm loads, but it's tooo difficult/impossible for me to do at the range, so I need to get on some private land. The only BB loads I have chronoed was their 360gr .454 loads out of my 7-1/2" FA. I shot five rounds, and they all were between 1,488 & 1,503 fps. Perhaps that was a fluke, but if not, I would be interested to see whether their 10mm loads are as consistent.

Taterhead 01-31-2013 22:11

Any Cal, I tend to agree with your take on this. I still have not seen convincing evidence to convince me that spring rate has much to do with lockup under pressure.

MarineHawk, the BB 10mm auto loads I tested had a tight SD on velocity with a spread of 25 fps. Consistent stuff. This was a 180 @ 1335 average from a 4.6" barrel. Pretty solid ammo. Too bad they load that crappy Montana Gold bullet now though.

MinervaDoe 01-31-2013 22:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by gatorbait69 (Post 19929217)
I'm more confused now. I will just leave it and continue to read posts and see if anything strikes me differently. I like the idea of less felt recoil only because that will be better for accuracy.

Any more suggestions??

Wow!! Really? Are you just looking for an excuse to modify your gun? They work really well stock.

If you've got extra money to spend, I'd recommend spending it on ammo and range time until you can get the bullets to all start going into the same hole.

Opie 1 Kenopie 01-31-2013 22:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by MinervaDoe (Post 19935684)
Wow!! Really? Are you just looking for an excuse to modify your gun? They work really well stock.

If you've got extra money to spend, I'd recommend spending it on ammo and range time until you can get the bullets to all start going into the same hole.

^^^. This. Leave it stock. You'll be just fine.

Taterhead 01-31-2013 22:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by MinervaDoe (Post 19935684)
Wow!! Really? Are you just looking for an excuse to modify your gun? They work really well stock.

If you've got extra money to spend, I'd recommend spending it on ammo and range time until you can get the bullets to all start going into the same hole.

:rofl: MD, that is funny. Great advice, but funny.

swinokur 02-01-2013 02:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by arc angel (Post 19924729)
the standard weight 17# recoil spring will be fine. Personally, and for your described use, i wouldn't use any spring heavier than 19#'s - especially not with any of the factory's current extractors.

Screw, 'stock'! I run vastly superior wolff gunsprings' np3-coated, non-captured, steel rods; and standard weight, (17#) wolff springs in both of my g-21's. As a result my polymer frames vibrate far less whenever i fire; and this large caliber glock - that has the same frame size as your pistol - smooths right out. :thumbsup:

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

this. Stock weight springs. SS Guide rod.

MarineHawk 02-01-2013 06:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taterhead (Post 19935612)
MarineHawk, the BB 10mm auto loads I tested had a tight SD on velocity with a spread of 25 fps. Consistent stuff. This was a 180 @ 1335 average from a 4.6" barrel. Pretty solid ammo. Too bad they load that crappy Montana Gold bullet now though.

Thanks Tater. Good to know.

How bad are the Montana Gold bullets? I read elsewhere complaints about them, but I don't know much else.

That 180gr BB cartridge is one of the most-powerful anyone loads in 10mm. It's a shame BB doesn't load it with a tougher, perhaps all-copper, bullet.

MarineHawk 02-01-2013 07:21

To me the possibility of choosing a non-stock recoil spring makes more sense with the 10mm than with just about any other auto cartridge because of the extreme spread in the power of the available loadings.

Are the following correct, given that 180gr 10mm loads can vary from producing 1,000 fps up to around 1,350 fps from a 4.6" barrel?

1. The best recoil spring to consistently handle the lighter loads won't be ideal for the heavier loads.

2. The best recoil spring to consistently handle the lighter loads will, however, work for the heavier loads, but will result in the slide slamming harder/faster against the receiver.

3. The best recoil spring to consistently handle the heavier loads won't work consistently well with the lighter loads.

4. With the heavier spring and firing the heavy loads, the slide will not slam as hard against the receiver as with a lighter spring.

I think all of those things are true, but I admit I am no expert and could be wrong about something. I know the slide also will close harder with the heavier spring.

If those things are true (and one slide can't work ideally both for 400 ft-lb and 750 ft-lb loads), for those who only intend to fire the limited number of factory loadings available that are hotter than the .40 S&W (or handload and load hot), it makes sense to me to install a stouter spring.

I have not had a single FTF/FTE with my 22-lb spring. I'm not saying anyone else should run out and get one, but it's not necessarily a preposterous concept.

For me, my range time is not limited by the recoil springs I do or don't buy. It's limited by my abysmal work schedule and the amount of time I'm willing to spend away from my family during the remainder.

Cwlongshot 02-01-2013 07:53

I can understand your confusion. Your just gonna need to wade thru filter these comments and decide. Good thing is you will likely be fine to leave it stock. BUT I agree improvements can be made.

You will always find the GLOCK purists that say there is nothing possible a person can do to improve perfection that is a GLOCK.

There are those who will never be satisfied and always think they can improve on any design.

Then there are those who feel nothing should be done to a carry gun for legal and reliability reasons.

My opinion is kinda a little of all of these. ;)

I have been using Wolffe springs for over 25 years and will continue he to do so. They are a improvement to any gun you I stall them in.

I also do not like the nylon/plastic guide rod. But feel the tungsten jobbers are useless. A good STS is all that's needed. I also prefer capture for ease of assembly.

I agree with Marine Hawks excellent post about different spring weights and lock up. The 10MM hase been neutered to the point its become confusing. The Underwood ammo (IIRC) is loaded to or closer to the SAMMI 37.5K spec. So I would try a heavier spring. Again as mentioned. GLOCK smiles on cases are directly related to two things under supported barrels and lock up issues. In many cases simply a heavier spring will cure the problem.

I run a 22# in my G20. But I also have a KKM6" barrel and shoot 200g ammo at 1300fps.

So shoot it as is and try it with a heavier spring. Springs are cheap. Enjoy your big10!

Good luck,
CW

gatorbait69 02-01-2013 09:06

Thanks for all the great info guys!! I'm definitely not looking for a reason to spend money. In fact, choosing the best spring, i thought, would help me become more accurate more quickly and, in turn, spend less on ammo. Let's face it, ammo is the expensive part about 10mm. I'm a big fan of stock glocks. I have 8 and the only thing aftermarket is night sights. Just read alot here about spring weights and wanted the experts opinions. I'm thinking about a 19# Stainless steel and seeing if there is any difference.

Thanks again for all the feedback!

MarineHawk 02-01-2013 11:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cwlongshot (Post 19936528)
I run a 22# in my G20. But I also have a KKM6" barrel and shoot 200g ammo at 1300fps.

CW, I have the same basic setup, but I can't find 1,300 fps 200gr ammo. Are they reloads? I would love to have even 1,200 fps HC WFN ammo, but it seems like, despite some manufacturers' claims, that does not exist yet. But perhaps I've missed something good out there.

Any Cal. 02-01-2013 13:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarineHawk (Post 19936418)

Are the following correct, given that 180gr 10mm loads can vary from producing 1,000 fps up to around 1,350 fps from a 4.6" barrel?

1. The best recoil spring to consistently handle the lighter loads won't be ideal for the heavier loads.Maybe, or not. The problem is that no one actually knows.

2. The best recoil spring to consistently handle the lighter loads will, however, work for the heavier loads, but will result in the slide slamming harder/faster against the receiver.It seems that way, but remember that you have to hold the gun much firmer for the heavier spring to work. Could it be that the heavy spring still lets the slide hit just as hard because of that? I don't know. Is the slide speed related to kinetic energy or momentum? It changes things. Does it matter if the slide hits harder in the first place?

3. The best recoil spring to consistently handle the heavier loads won't work consistently well with the lighter loads.Depends on what the 'best' spring is and how tolerant the design is of an improper spring rate, or if the spring rate even matters.

4. With the heavier spring and firing the heavy loads, the slide will not slam as hard against the receiver as with a lighter spring.See #2. Also, is it actually detrimental for the slide to hit the frame harder?

I think all of those things are true, but I admit I am no expert and could be wrong about something. I know the slide also will close harder with the heavier spring.

If those things are true (and one slide can't work ideally both for 400 ft-lb and 750 ft-lb loads), for those who only intend to fire the limited number of factory loadings available that are hotter than the .40 S&W (or handload and load hot), it makes sense to me to install a stouter spring.

I have not had a single FTF/FTE with my 22-lb spring. I'm not saying anyone else should run out and get one, but it's not necessarily a preposterous concept.

For me, my range time is not limited by the recoil springs I do or don't buy. It's limited by my abysmal work schedule and the amount of time I'm willing to spend away from my family during the remainder.

I don't mean to argue, I would love to hear what you think. My only thought is that there is a lot more engineering that goes in to each part than most people realize, so it would take several important pieces of info to be able to say at which point a spring would be required, and whether it would be detrimental under any conditions.

There is going to be a limit on how hard the slide can hit the frame, based on how rigidly the frame can be held by human hands and the slide speed that can be achieved by the load itself. The ultimate question is whether there is a load, and which load that would be, that can raise slide speed high enough to damage the frame when it is held by human hands . Once again, I don't know the slide speed, at what point it is damaging to the frame, how grip strength affects the issue, or which loads will have the most drastic affect on slide speed. If someone had all of those answers, they could start arguing with the factory.

There are several parts to an auto's recoil, the muzzle coming up and the slide coming back, the slide hitting the frame, the slide accelerating forward, and the slide hitting full lockup. A different spring that changes properties in one direction would have to make up the difference somewhere. If it can slow the slide sooner, it will accelerate it forward faster and it will hit the frame on closing harder. Not saying anything is right or wrong, but can imagine that it is difficult to quantify recoil well since there are multiple components that we may perceive differently.


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