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-   -   G21 breech face indentation. (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1468122)

vaquero aleman 01-28-2013 19:39

G21 breech face indentation.
 
Has anyone experienced their slide indenting like this?

http://i1163.photobucket.com/albums/...IMG_0011-1.jpg

It appears that the primers are pounding the steel and it is caving in.

I have fired apx. 200 rounds of .460 Rowland from this G21.

yellowhand 01-28-2013 20:47

Had me worried when I saw yours and went and checked mine.
I too fire 460 thru my 21 and no, no marks on my face at all and I've shot far more than you stated, must be one hell of a load to mark your weapon up like that, wow!

vaquero aleman 01-28-2013 20:57

I have shot Ga Arms 230gr @ 1300fps and Underwood 185gr @ 1500+fps. I haven't had the nerve to shoot any Underwood 230gr. But then, I have to admit, I don't run a comp on my G21. I use an LWD barrel that I cut down to 4.75" with a Sprinco unit set up for a Power Factor of 310. It is quite an experience.

yobohadi 01-28-2013 21:02

Maybe the slide wasn't hardened correctly, sounds like a call into Glock is in your future.

vaquero aleman 01-28-2013 21:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by yobohadi (Post 19923799)
Maybe the slide wasn't hardened correctly, sounds like a call into Glock is in your future.

I would like to contact Glock about this except that firing .460 Rowland from a G21 is completely outside of acceptable for Glock. I wouldn't mind discussing this with one of their engineers, but when I call Glock the only people I get to talk to are the ones that have been programmed to tell you that it has to be your fault.

Tiro Fijo 01-28-2013 21:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by yobohadi (Post 19923799)
Maybe the slide wasn't hardened correctly, sounds like a call into Glock is in your future.


:rofl:

Rigggghhhhttttt!!

"Hello Glock, I am having problems with my G21 because I am shooting a wild *** wildcat ctg. with pressures in the ionosphere and was wondering if you would honor the warranty?" :upeyes:

yellowhand 01-28-2013 21:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by vaquero aleman (Post 19923833)
I would like to contact Glock about this except that firing .460 Rowland from a G21 is completely outside of acceptable for Glock. I wouldn't mind discussing this with one of their engineers, but when I call Glock the only people I get to talk to are the ones that have been programmed to tell you that it has to be your fault.


Don't mention 460 Rowland, place factory 45 ACP barrel back into weapon, and ask Glock, "What happened to my Glock? How you going to fix it?"
Don't ask, and sure as hell don't tell:faint:

yellowhand 01-28-2013 21:37

oh, forgot, repeat after me,
I have never fired anything thru my Glock 21 except for factory 45 ACP target loads!
Say it 100 times, before you make the call.:rofl:

Tiro Fijo 01-29-2013 02:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by yellowhand (Post 19923898)
Don't mention 460 Rowland, place factory 45 ACP barrel back into weapon, and ask Glock, "What happened to my Glock? How you going to fix it?"
Don't ask, and sure as hell don't tell:faint:

Quote:

Originally Posted by yellowhand (Post 19923909)
oh, forgot, repeat after me,
I have never fired anything thru my Glock 21 except for factory 45 ACP target loads!
Say it 100 times, before you make the call.:rofl:


Fraud is a crime.

yellowhand 01-29-2013 07:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo (Post 19924417)
Fraud is a crime.

yes it is!:rofl:

BMiracletx 01-29-2013 13:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo (Post 19924417)
Fraud is a crime.

Oh its just a little white lie... if that was a crime then all of our politicians would be locked up...

vaquero aleman 01-29-2013 13:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by vaquero aleman (Post 19923510)
Has anyone experienced their slide indenting like this?

http://i1163.photobucket.com/albums/...IMG_0011-1.jpg

It appears that the primers are pounding the steel and it is caving in.

I have fired apx. 200 rounds of .460 Rowland from this G21.

I am still hoping that someone might be able to shed some light on this problem. I don't know if this is serious or minor.

Catshooter 01-29-2013 16:53

Does it actually dish inwards as much as it appears in the photo? I'd put a straight edge on it.

If it is dishing as much as it looks like, then yes Houston, I'd say you have a problem. That area of the slide is where all of the case head thrust is taking place during firing. That are of the slide is cut away and isn't all that thick and there are thousands of pounds of force applied there with each firing.

If it were mine, (I'm a gunsmith) and it really is as dished as it looks then I would call Glock and send it in for replacement. I would be honest and tell them what I've been doing. If that much damage has occured there where you can see it, is there damage where you can't? The whole pistol needs to be gone over by the factory, not a Glock Armorer. If you tell them the truth then they can do a better job of exaimination, now can't they.

Worst case is you get some small parts back, buy a new G21 and move on. Better that than the slide ending up embedded in your forehead.


Cat

WinterWizard 01-29-2013 16:57

So you fired a cartridge in your Glock that it is not chambered for and produces about twice as much energy as .45 acp, and now your Glock is damaged, and you are complaining why?

llcoolj_2222 01-29-2013 23:33

It is serious.
Breech face must be mirror flat. no cracks, dings, dishisngs or any other inperfection.
The breech face together with the chamber deals with the highest pressure peak when firing your gun so it shouldn't have any weakness points or fault lines.
Also, mind that in glocks the breech face is about 1mm thin, and in case of failure, there is good chance of the FP flying into your face.

gatorboy 01-30-2013 09:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catshooter (Post 19926769)
Does it actually dish inwards as much as it appears in the photo? I'd put a straight edge on it.

If it is dishing as much as it looks like, then yes Houston, I'd say you have a problem. That area of the slide is where all of the case head thrust is taking place during firing. That are of the slide is cut away and isn't all that thick and there are thousands of pounds of force applied there with each firing.

If it were mine, (I'm a gunsmith) and it really is as dished as it looks then I would call Glock and send it in for replacement. I would be honest and tell them what I've been doing. If that much damage has occured there where you can see it, is there damage where you can't? The whole pistol needs to be gone over by the factory, not a Glock Armorer. If you tell them the truth then they can do a better job of exaimination, now can't they.

Worst case is you get some small parts back, buy a new G21 and move on. Better that than the slide ending up embedded in your forehead.


Cat

That's the best advice yet. Don't see why brass and aluminum primers would do that though. I had a 23 years back that had deep pits in the breechface shooting about 4K rds. of factory non-corosive ammo. They gave me a new pistol. LWD makes solid long slide 21's that are heavy as hell and threaded 6" barrels. Seems that would work better for 460 anyway. I would'nt lie. Despite the fact it really is fraud, they may just read GT once in a while, especially threads like this one. Good luck and IMO, don't shoot anything from that slide until it get's checked out.

roger123 01-30-2013 09:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by WinterWizard (Post 19926790)
So you fired a cartridge in your Glock that it is not chambered for and produces about twice as much energy as .45 acp, and now your Glock is damaged, and you are complaining why?

I must have missed the complaining part. I just saw someone post honestly what they did and asking if anyone has seen it.

JBS 01-30-2013 10:25

It would be interesting to see what the primer of a fired case looks like. Is the fired primer a complete pancake? Completely flush with the primer pocket rim?

Catshooter 01-30-2013 11:09

Be interesting to see the fired case head. Is it bowed? Can't tell with just this limited data if the loads are too hot, the heat treatment of the slide incorrect or just what.

What are your loads by the way?

Inquiring minds you know.


Cat

F106 Fan 01-30-2013 11:42

If it peens far enough, can it trap the firing pin? That would be an interesting experience. Imagine a mag dump on full auto!

That slide is seriously hosed!

Richard

Arc Angel 01-30-2013 13:14

Yes, it's serious; and you should stop using your G-21 with such heavy loads. There's got 'a be some sort of increase in headspace on that 45; and primers are going to have a tendency to back out on ya, too.

I have, long, suspected Glock breech faces of not being properly hardened and of inconsistent density. I've tried, for years, to find out exactly how and what they're made; but all I ever get is, 'from steel billets'. What kind of steel billets remains a mystery? Are they X-rayed for stress imperfections and cracks? I doubt it.

Tenifer is just a surface treatment; and the overall tensile strength of a Glock's breech face remains largely unknown. Do Glock breech faces ever fail? Yes, on occasion, we already know that they do. I suppose I'm as guilty as the next guy. I've fired modest 45 Super loads in both of my own G-21's. So far, though, without any apparent ill-effects other than a little minor slide peeing.

A reasonable solution? Get an aftermarket slide; and, from now on, shoot tamer loads. ;)


NOTE: Now that I think about it, nothing has been said about, 'HOW' you set this G-21 up? Your polymer frame could be, 'wobbling like spaghetti' every time the pistol is fired.

proguide 01-30-2013 13:54

Probably not heat treated to spec. Glock will make you pay however due to the conversion. They weren't designed and engineered for that is going to be your answer.

vaquero aleman 01-30-2013 16:07

I have never shot hand loads from my 21. I have shot Ga Arms 230gr @ 1300fps and Underwood 185gr @ 1500fps from this 21. The primers have some flow but they look normal, no pancake effect. The only difference between my setup and the kit from 460rowland.com is that I did not use a compensator on my LWD barrel, and LWD now offers 460 Rowland reaming for thier 45 ACP barrels. The barrel has remained solid. I chose to use a Sprinco unit "factory modified" to handle 230gr @ 1350fps. The Sprinco stops the slide from impacting the frame but does very little to reduce the felt recoil. I have kept a close watch on the entire pistol and I have found no stress cracks or loosening of parts and the rails are still just as solid as the day I bought the pistol. Also, there is little or no bulging on the 460 Rowland brass.

http://i1163.photobucket.com/albums/...003-Copy-1.jpg

Tiro Fijo 01-30-2013 16:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by vaquero aleman (Post 19930699)
I have never shot hand loads from my 21. I have shot Ga Arms 230gr @ 1300fps and Underwood 185gr @ 1500fps from this 21....

460rowland.com...


You don't get it yet, do you? Let me make this simple:

The .460 Rowland is not a factory chambered round by Glock. Period.

If you took a brand new Dodge pickup, dumped the engine and replaced it with a JATO, would Dodge honor the warranty because the frame bent? :wavey:

Underwood is known for ammo that is hotter than the hubs of hell and you have coupled that with a wildcat NON-FACTORY chambered round utilizing an AFTERMARKET barrel and AFTERMARKET RSA.

Got it? You're screwed. You tossed the dice & you lost. Accept it & move on. You'll need to buy a new slide and hopefully have learned your lesson.

Catshooter 01-30-2013 16:51

Ok, so your loads may not be the cause, it may be the slide itself.

What's your next step?


Cat


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