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glock39 02-02-2013 10:24

De-Zombifying an ugly gun
 
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I am thinking of getting a with a lever-action 30-30 for a camping/truck gun, primarily for defense rather than hunting. Yes, I know the SKS is a better fighting gun. But traveling around and being on somebody else's land makes me not want to even appear to be looking for trouble. A lever-action rifle does not look like one of those terrible Assault Weapons. :whistling: Where I live this isn't a legal issue (at least not yet), but simply a desire to maintain a low profile.

Most any lever action would work, however Mossberg makes a "tactical" model of their 464. From a strictly mechanical point of view, it's got potential. Short barreled and shorter overall length. Unfortunately, the thing looks like a prop from a Mad Max movie:

http://www.mossberg.com/products/rif...ssberg-464-spx :wow:

However, the rails could be removed and the fore stock repainted. I suppose the simplest thing would be to just cover the M4 stock with a leather butt cuff (something that covers the whole stock all the way up to the lever and holds some extra cartridges). Another option might be to repaint all the furniture almost anything other than black (maybe a nice hunter friendly Woodland Camo pattern?).

I could also replace the M4 stock with a side-folding stock of some kind. I would definitely want a folding stock with a more sporting profile, and it wouldn't have to be capable of being fired with the stock folded. This would still look like someone butchered an innocent cowboy rifle, but a "backpack" gun might be less threatening than an Evil Black Rifle. And I would have the advantage that almost nothing I could do to it would make the rifle look worse than it already does.

I would also like to find a way to carry it that doesn't look like a rifle case. Again, to keep a low profile, I'd rather that it not even look like I've got a rifle. The M4 stock collapses the rifle down to 32 inches. A folding stock could get it down to the minimum legal 26 inches and would be one of the reasons this rifle would make sense. I wish Mossberg had done that to begin with, but apparently they think there are more Zombie Hunters than campers or backpackers.

I want to blend in with a generic deer rifle, not look like a Super Mall Ninja. Can this rifle be redeemed, or is it a lost cause?

kalashluvr 02-02-2013 10:44

Why don't you just get a regular 30-30 with wood stocks rather than buy this and swap everything out? Maybe I missed something though....


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire

glock39 02-02-2013 10:47

Why don't you just get a regular 30-30 with wood stocks rather than buy this and swap everything out? Maybe I missed something though....

That is definitely the other option I'm considering. The only thing the Tactical model has going for it is a shorter overall length, and the fact that it would be easier to put a folding stock on it.

GAFinch 02-02-2013 10:47

As far as an inconspicuous case, a gun up to 28" will fit inside a tennis racket bag or some gym bags.

Bren 02-02-2013 10:55

That POS is nearly a $400 gun and it's made by Mossberg. That's like paying $600 for a Taurus revolver. That's more than I paid for my Marlin 1895G with scope, 50 rounds of ammo and about 500 rounds of ..223 thrown in. It shouldn't be hard to get a real lever action from a decent gun company for under $300.

Glockdude1 02-02-2013 10:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by GAFinch (Post 19940553)
As far as an inconspicuous case, a gun up to 28" will fit inside a tennis racket bag or some gym bags.

:agree:

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/h...7/baggedak.jpg

mjkeat 02-02-2013 11:15

The rifle is a little silly but I will say the sights are nice.

MStarmer 02-02-2013 11:19

Gotta agree lot's, of better choices. For a truck gun like mentioned a Marlin would be hard to beat.

glock39 02-02-2013 11:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bren (Post 19940570)
That POS is nearly a $400 gun and it's made by Mossberg. That's like paying $600 for a Taurus revolver. That's more than I paid for my Marlin 1895G with scope, 50 rounds of ammo and about 500 rounds of ..223 thrown in. It shouldn't be hard to get a real lever action from a decent gun company for under $300.

I'm not committed to Mossberg as such, other than that the 464's apparently have a shotgun style stock attachment bolt. Which should make them more structurally able to accept different stocks.

You're right, the Tactical is an overpriced marketing gimmick. However, I'm thinking that it would be cheaper to buy one that's already factory set up to attach a folding stock, than to pay a gunsmith to modify a regular lever action.

In other words, it would be easier to fix the cosmetics on the Tactical, than to mechanically convert a normal rifle to accept a folding stock.

Gunnut 45/454 02-02-2013 12:39

Agreed just pick up a nice used 30-30 Win or Marlin- it a truck gun!:supergrin:

ViennaGambit 02-02-2013 13:11

Just picked up a new Marlin 336Y for this very purpose - it is the "youth model" but has a 16" barrel with a 12.5" lop and fits me fine... It was $408 out the door. Going to just add a sling, buttstock shell holder and a Skinner sight. MAYBE add an XS lever rail for a red dot, but dont think so.

Just can't beat a 336 for the price/value ratio.

And the best part is that .30-30 is still in stock EVERYWHERE.

lawman800 02-02-2013 23:06

What do you guys think of a lever gun in 357/38 so that I don't have to stock up on another caliber? The logistics is a concern as well as the fact that the 30-30 ain't exactly the cheapest ammo either.

Glockdude1 02-03-2013 04:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by lawman800 (Post 19942951)
What do you guys think of a lever gun in 357/38 so that I don't have to stock up on another caliber? The logistics is a concern as well as the fact that the 30-30 ain't exactly the cheapest ammo either.

A lever gun in .357 is a nice choice. You could shoot .38 also. With .357 rounds, recoil would be nearly non existent.

:cool:

Cwlongshot 02-03-2013 06:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glockdude1 (Post 19943352)
A lever gun in .357 is a nice choice. You could shoot .38 also. With .357 rounds, recoil would be nearly non existent.

:cool:

IMHO, this is a excellent suggestion, ballistics of the 357Mag form a rifle are JUST behind the 30-30 and if hand loaded the 357 Mag equals the 30-30. 357 and 38's are cheap and plentiful. The 30-30 has QUITE a blast form a short barrel, the 357 will be more pleasant...

BUT if your set on the 30-30, I would buy a used older Marlin and have the barrel/mag tube pruned to just over 16" then trim the stock down to 12-12.5'' LOP. Remove and oaint the stocks with Truck bed liner paint. This gets you a matt blk finish and is extreamly durable with a great texture. Add a shell holder to the stock and go enjoy your truck gun.

CW

NDCent 02-03-2013 06:41

So, Mossberg sells an AK-30/30. Whatever the market calls for, I reckon. :dunno:

glock39 02-03-2013 07:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by lawman800 (Post 19942951)
What do you guys think of a lever gun in 357/38 so that I don't have to stock up on another caliber? The logistics is a concern as well as the fact that the 30-30 ain't exactly the cheapest ammo either.

I had considered a 38/357 rifle as well, but decided that the more expensive 30-30 was a better choice. Anyone with more experience, please feel free to correct me on any of the following. I'm basing this on Internet research, not experience.

The 38+P loads out of a rifle look like they have about the same velocity as a 357 out of a 3 inch pistol. Much improved, but not the same as a full size 357 pistol. Some 357 rifles will apparently feed 38's flawlessly, but some will double feed the shorter 38 cases and cause a nasty jam. The 30-30 only has one case size.

The 357 pistol loads out of a rifle get a tremendous boost in speed, perhaps too much. Apparently deer hunters don't like them because a hollow-point pistol bullet that's designed to open up at 1500 ft/sec can completely fragment and not penetrate properly at 2000 ft/sec. I'm frankly not sure how that translates into use on thinner skinned bipedal predators.

Some 357 loads are specifically designed for rifle velocities. But it you then fired them out of a 3 inch pistol, you'd have the opposite problem. Would a bullet designed for 2000 ft/sec work properly at less than 1500 ft/sec out of a smaller 357 pistol? So is your ammo really interchangeable between the rifle and pistol?

The 30-30 factory loads are all designed to operate at about 2000 ft/sec out of a rifle barrel. Some of the 30-30 hollow-points apparently don''t have any more penetration (at least through ballistic gelatin) than many pistol bullets, but have a lot more kinetic energy than any pistol.

For hunters, plinker's and those who hand load, the 357 rifle is wonderfully versatile. For self defense, pretty much any 30-30 factory load should work predictably (as they were all designed for rifle use), and there are both hollow-points and longer range options available. If you hand load, then you can make quiet and/or low power loads for small game.

HerrGlock 02-03-2013 07:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by lawman800 (Post 19942951)
What do you guys think of a lever gun in 357/38 so that I don't have to stock up on another caliber? The logistics is a concern as well as the fact that the 30-30 ain't exactly the cheapest ammo either.

I wanted a .357 lever action just to have one caliber out in the field. This thing is just flat FUN!
http://www.marlinfirearms.com/firear...fire/1894c.asp

Really good accuracy, doesn't look like the EBR and I'm thinking I'm going to lose mine when my son comes to visit one of these times.

Cwlongshot 02-03-2013 07:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by glock39 (Post 19943460)
I had considered a 38/357 rifle as well, but decided that the more expensive 30-30 was a better choice. Anyone with more experience, please feel free to correct me on any of the following. I'm basing this on Internet research, not experience.

The 38+P loads out of a rifle look like they have about the same velocity as a 357 out of a 3 inch pistol. Much improved, but not the same as a full size 357 pistol. Some 357 rifles will apparently feed 38's flawlessly, but some will double feed the shorter 38 cases and cause a nasty jam. The 30-30 only has one case size.

The 357 pistol loads out of a rifle get a tremendous boost in speed, perhaps too much. Apparently deer hunters don't like them because a hollow-point pistol bullet that's designed to open up at 1500 ft/sec can completely fragment and not penetrate properly at 2000 ft/sec. I'm frankly not sure how that translates into use on thinner skinned bipedal predators.

Some 357 loads are specifically designed for rifle velocities. But it you then fired them out of a 3 inch pistol, you'd have the opposite problem. Would a bullet designed for 2000 ft/sec work properly at less than 1500 ft/sec out of a smaller 357 pistol? So is your ammo really interchangeable between the rifle and pistol?

The 30-30 factory loads are all designed to operate at about 2000 ft/sec out of a rifle barrel. Some of the 30-30 hollow-points apparently don''t have any more penetration (at least through ballistic gelatin) than many pistol bullets, but have a lot more kinetic energy than any pistol.

For hunters, plinker's and those who hand load, the 357 rifle is wonderfully versatile. For self defense, pretty much any 30-30 factory load should work predictably (as they were all designed for rifle use), and there are both hollow-points and longer range options available. If you hand load, then you can make quiet and/or low power loads for small game.


Your statements are mostly true. BUT taken slightly out of context, there are also a couple schools of thought here...

First off, what is the purpose/use for this firearm?

Because something for personal defense is different that a hunting firearm. Mostly concerning over/under penetration. By and large the 357 is a personal defense caliber while the 30-30 is a light game hunting caliber.

The 357 levers WILL reliably feed most all 38 special loadings, OTHER THAN FULL WAD CUTTERS. Full wad cutters can be used if loaded single and do in fact shoot very well in my own guns.

YES, for hunting, the use of a hollow point, when fired thru a longer carbine/rifle barrel in 357. 41 or 44 mag calibers will exhib shallow penetration and bullet desegregation. BUT simply utilizing soft point bullets eliminates this issue. I have shot a number of deer using both HP and SP ammo. From both handgun and rifle length barrels. The SP ammo is head and shoulders better with thru and thru penetration unless major bones are impacted.
BUT, same HP for personal protection will stop over penetration and collateral damages. All while imparting fight stopping prefromance on two legged vermin. Even for PD uses, I would avoid the lightest bullet weights. the 158s are about perfect and most widely available. These light loadings are excellent for small game as would be the 38 spl loadings.

Also, while you are correct velocity increases are experienced. In a magnum, 300-400 fps is closer to the truth. (I have choreographed MOST all available) A full 2000 fps is a bit exaggerated. Its nit picking I know, but 1800fps is about tops UNLESS you hand load. My own 158g XTP FP loading with Lil Gun powder, almost reaches 2000fps from my 18'' barrel Marlin. This level of 357 mag preformance is every bit equal and even superior to the 30-30 150g and it even has a heavier, larger diameter bullet making preformance on game likely BETTER with the 357 Magnum!!! All with slightly less recoil, more rounds in magazine and less muzzle blast.

The 30-30 WILL over-penetrate two legged vermin at any angle and with any part impacted. This is NOT a worry with a 158 HP form a 357 Mag. This 30-30 penetration is desirable in a hunting situation. Conserning HP 30-30 ammo, I have not seen the Winchester HP's for some time, but even if you have some they will NOT preform as a 357 Mag HP will. They are still designed for hunting use and WILL COMPLETELY penetrate any person and likely still go thru walls and into by standers or sleeping house mates...

For a balance of both, I feel either will suffice as long as your aware of the over penetration of the 30-30 is used in dewlings with innocent bystanders around.

Good luck,
CW

MrMurphy 02-03-2013 07:55

The regular 464, or a used Marlin with standard stocks will work fine.

Get a youth stock and a Williams aperature, and a canvas ammo belt (check out the CAS type shooter supply sites) and you're in business. Design hasn't changed in a century, they're still easy to shoot and do the job.

A .357 makes a good antipersonnel-only gun or light game, but the .30-30 has more range and power.

Bill Keith 02-03-2013 08:11

I have both the .30-30 and a 357 lever gun. Both Marlin. Both good guns but I consider the .30-30 more of a hunting gun and the 357 for defense. .30-30 ammo is available just about everywhere and around here it seems to go on sale regularly.


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