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-   -   Chamber Empty VS, Chamber Loaded (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1473148)

TEXASTACTICAL 02-21-2013 09:18

Chamber Empty VS, Chamber Loaded
 
In case anyone is interested in the time differences using some real numbers

Chamber Empty VS. Chamber Loaded

On February 16 and 17th 2013 the Texas Tactical shooters set out to gather data
on the efficiency of carrying a gun with an empty chamber vs. carrying a handgun with a loaded chamber.

104 shooters shot 4 strings of fire.

The Course of Fire consisted of 4 Targets at 3 yards. The strings of fire were as follows:

String 1. Starting with magazine inserted and an empty chamber and handgun in holster,
at the signal chamber a round and engage Target 1 with a Mozambiquee drill.

String 2. Starting with magazine inserted and loaded chamber and handgun in holster, at
the signal engage Target 2 with a Mozambiquee drill.

String 3. Starting with magazine inserted and an empty chamber and handgun in holster,
at the signal chamber a round using strong hand only and engage Target 3 with a
>Mozambiquee drill, firing strong hand only. Shooters were instructed that they could use
any safe technique to chamber the round strong hand only. This included using the belt,
holster, pant seam, etc. or even the Bianchi barricade that was conveniently placed in front
of them within arms reach.

String 4. Starting with magazine inserted and loaded chamber and handgun in holster, at
the signal engage Target 4 with a Mozambiquee drill using strong hand only.

Special Thanks to all the Texas Tactical shooters who helped to gather this data. Thank you to Ryan and
Jennifer for your work in compiling the data.

Here are the results:

http://www.texastactical.net/results...amberEmpty.htm

Average Difference on strings 1 and 2 using all data between Chamber Empty Vs Chamber Loaded:
Chamber loaded was faster by 0.77

Average Difference on string 1 and 2 after removing extreme high and low between Chamber Empty Vs Chamber Loaded:
Chamber loaded was faster by 0.84

Average Difference using all data for strings 3 and 4 between Strong Hand Only Chamber Empty Vs Strong Hand Only Chamber Loaded:
Chamber loaded was faster by 2.09

Average Difference on strings 3 and 4 after removing extreme high and low between Strong Hand Only Chamber Empty Vs Strong Hand Only Chamber Loaded:
Chamber loaded was faster by 3.22

A6Gator 02-21-2013 09:37

We did something like this a couple years ago with our Tri-State shooters here in Memphis (where's PEC-Memphis...). As I recall, the general results were similar, with empty chambers taking longer to complete stages. A couple of things we should look at additionally, are: time to first shot and accuracy. Harder to test is: these were all shooters who were knew the course of fire and knew the beep was coming. It'd be interesting to see how the element of surprise would impact the results, especially if you can get inside the OODA loop earlier, for example, going hands on before engagement.

Good job in pulling all the data together. It still tells me that when seconds count, I don't want to be jacking the slide back while staring at the threat.

Lord 02-21-2013 10:21

and this test was done with professional shooters in a controlled environment.
Forgive me if I take the results with a grain of salt as most CHL/CCW holders (while not all) don't go to the range and shoot and drill as frequently as the pro's do... therefore the chambered vs non-chambered results would be WAY different in a real world scenario where tensions are high, and adrenaline creates a river of chaos and possibilities.

The best thing to do, is TRAIN TRAIN TRAIN.
I carry C1, and the only thing I would have to do is thumb the safety in order to fire if I have to... which would not detract time from since I thumb as I draw.

It's a good test, gathers good data, but it's really hard to reconcile with real-world.

WT 02-21-2013 10:33

Excellent work. Thanks to you and your volunteer shooters.

My Excel skills are a little weak. Do you have the standard deviation and medium for each column? I am trying to get an idea of 'overlap' between column 1 and column 2.

Thanks again for this presentation.

GreenDrake 02-21-2013 10:34

No correlation to agitated scenarios of life or death really. I will never be convinced that anything other than hot and ready to go is the proper way to carry. Heck I don't even like safeties anymore. DA/SA is my favorite these days.

TEXASTACTICAL 02-21-2013 10:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord (Post 20014833)
and this test was done with professional shooters in a controlled environment.
Forgive me if I take the results with a grain of salt as most CHL/CCW holders (while not all) don't go to the range and shoot and drill as frequently as the pro's do... therefore the chambered vs non-chambered results would be WAY different in a real world scenario where tensions are high, and adrenaline creates a river of chaos and possibilities.

The best thing to do, is TRAIN TRAIN TRAIN.
I carry C1, and the only thing I would have to do is thumb the safety in order to fire if I have to... which would not detract time from since I thumb as I draw.

It's a good test, gathers good data, but it's really hard to reconcile with real-world.

These were all recreational shooters. Some train harder than others but most are your everyday gun enthusiasts.

These times were gathered under optimal conditions. With the only stress being the timer and competition.

In real life I would expect things to get worse.

vandros 02-21-2013 12:19

i wonder if most of these folks train and carry C1? if so, it is not surprising that C1 so dramatically outperformed C3 in terms of speed... just my 0.02.

Paul53 02-21-2013 13:04

Thanks for the post. Interesting results.

vafish 02-21-2013 16:25

Run stage 5 with someone pummeling the snot out of the shooter and see how much difference there is.

Stage 6 with the attacker using a knife or bat.

posted from my stupid smart phone, please excuse any spelling mistakes.

robhic 02-21-2013 16:31

Interesting results.Thank you for posting them. Only thing I would mention is, like vafish mentions, running a drill at a range and staring at an attacker OR a gun pointed at you would probably skew the results! A lot!!!! :wow:

TEXASTACTICAL 02-21-2013 16:56

Also just for the record one of the shooters lost his factory Glock rear sight while using them to rack it off the barricade.

DWARREN123 02-21-2013 17:04

Need to try it with one injured hand and being under fire, real world senario.

TEXASTACTICAL 02-21-2013 17:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by DWARREN123 (Post 20016298)
Need to try it with one injured hand and being under fire, real world senario.

Are you volunteering? :supergrin:

PEC-Memphis 02-21-2013 21:14

Here's what we did. About 15 total shooters....

Experiment - Chambered Vs Unchambered Vs Calf OC
We had a little experiment with the first three (3) CoFs, at our weekly IDPA match tonight - Here's what we did:

Each stage was set up where the targets were four (4) yards away - seven (7) rounds; not limited. T1 is shot standing in the open - two (2) shots to the body, one (1) to the head;then move to the barricade two (2) yards to the right;from behind cover, "pie" T2 & T3 with two (2) shots each;

Here's what was different:

Stage 1 - Cover garment required, firearm holstered with magazine inserted and round in the chamber

Stage 2 - Cover garment required, firearm holstered with magazine inserted and NO round in the chamber.

Stage 3 - California OC Style - No cover garment allowed, magazine in belt pouch, and NO magazine in firearm, and NO round in chamber.

I averaged the masters/experts/sharpshooters in one group, and marksmen, novices and unknowns in second group - then averaged everyone combined in the third group, and here are the results:



MA/EX/SS - (Stage 1/Stage 2/ Stage 3)

Raw Times - 5.31 / 5.50 / 6.04
Scores - 6.48 / 6.50 / 8.06

MM/NV/UK - (Stage 1/Stage 2/ Stage 3)

Raw Times - 6.50 / 6.40 / 6.94
Scores - 7.05 / 6.90 / 8.64

Combined - (Stage 1/Stage 2/ Stage 3)

Raw Times - 6.05 / 6.06 / 6.60
Scores - 6.84 / 6.75 / 8.42


Personally, I think that Stage 1 was at a little bit of a disadvantage in that everyone shot it "cold" - and if there had been a "warm up stage" before, the scenario in stage 1 might have scored a little better. But overall I think the results were pretty interesting - In every group, the raw times are about 2/3rds of a second, or less, apart for each method.

fwm 02-22-2013 17:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord (Post 20014833)
and this test was done with professional shooters in a controlled environment.
Forgive me if I take the results with a grain of salt as most CHL/CCW holders (while not all) don't go to the range and shoot and drill as frequently as the pro's do... therefore the chambered vs non-chambered results would be WAY different in a real world scenario where tensions are high, and adrenaline creates a river of chaos and possibilities.

The best thing to do, is TRAIN TRAIN TRAIN.
I carry C1, and the only thing I would have to do is thumb the safety in order to fire if I have to... which would not detract time from since I thumb as I draw.

It's a good test, gathers good data, but it's really hard to reconcile with real-world.

A point I have always believed in. Most CCW carriers, myself included have real lives away from carrying and can barely get a couple hundred rounds every couple of months. ALL of my carry guns are DA or DAO for just that reason. Since I was 10 and my father died and I no longer had access to my uncles' colt, I have never again used a gun that required a safety to be safe (55 years). To old to learn new tricks.

Deaf Smith 02-22-2013 17:41

Cool.. now time it with one hand while the other guy is beating the stuffings out of you.

And maybe try it with sweaty hands after 20 or so pushups to get your heart racing.

And maybe time it with someone who is NOT familiar with guns nor has practice chamber loading a gun at speed.

Deaf

davsco 02-22-2013 18:09

i don't understand the rationale behind carrying a firearm without a round in the chamber. it obviously takes extra time to rack the slide and doing that certainly is a distraction, and one may not have both hands free to do all this.

SpringerTGO 02-22-2013 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by davsco (Post 20020392)
i don't understand the rationale behind carrying a firearm without a round in the chamber. it obviously takes extra time to rack the slide and doing that certainly is a distraction, and one may not have both hands free to do all this.

When I carry, it's always with one in the chamber.
That said, some people aren't comfortable with one in the chamber for a variety of reasons. Some are new and don't have a lot of training or enough experience to feel at ease carrying that way.
Some people don't have retention holsters and might worry about a child getting it's hands on it.

In any case, it's an old argument, and for civilians a pretty silly one. People should carry however they feel secure.

Glockdude1 02-22-2013 18:27

Police officer carry: One in the chamber, ready to fire

Bad guy carry: One in the chamber, ready to fire.

Anyone else see a pattern here?

Why would anyone legally carrying a pistol, NOT want a round in the chamber, ready to fire?

:dunno:

Spiffums 02-23-2013 07:06

Nice! But "just carry with one in the pipe" would have been easier to type.

TEXASTACTICAL 02-23-2013 16:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spiffums (Post 20021912)
Nice! But "just carry with one in the pipe" would have been easier to type.

LOL too funny.

number1gun 02-23-2013 16:39

Only one question..Why. You did not need a test. Anyone could tell you it is a really dumb idea to carry without the chamber loaded. Not getting it.

TEXASTACTICAL 02-23-2013 16:42

There are some people that carry with an empty chamber. I was hoping some real numbers night convince them to change their mind.

ezthumper 02-23-2013 17:30

It is funny, sitting through a class, and watching everyone in the class. (not being creepy, just paying attention to body language and facial expressions) Watching the pure impatience and the inconvenience in their posturing. Rolling eyes when some one asks a question. The over confident tone and head shaking because they have been there before. They have had their bragging badge for the last 5 years. Experts.

Go out and hit your 3, 7 and 10. And low and behold huge issues on the range.

One lady has not seen the pistol in 5 years, had no clue how to rack the pistol. Brought the wrong ammo.....(impatient and inconvenienced)

One guy has never cleaned nor fired it in 5 years, yet carries it every day he proudly stated. It was so dirty it would not even rack. It was full of lint, crap and whatever else crawled in there we really did not want to know...The instructor had to break it down and clean it for him. (Bragging badge guy..)

Another person spread his shots from his target to the next shooters target next to him.(class expert)

I know everyone has a life, and life gets busy. I do understand. But how can someone take the responsibility to carry a weapon...and not keep up the skill sets?

I must be living the easy life cuz I hit the range at least twice a week. Some times I get lucky and twice a month I get a pass for being a good boy and get to spend 4 hours at the range..

I go through in an hour period, 100 to 200 rounds with out RAPID spewing. Depending on my drill.

Yet I have 6 kids, Scouts, work 10 to 12 hours a day. Golf on the weekends, bought a new house( fixing/upgrading stuff) and any other thing that pops up with the honey do list..

I certainly must be living the Life of Riley.

Deaf Smith 02-23-2013 21:03

ezthumper,

I practice quite often to. Expert or better in all IDPA classifications. Class 'A' IPSC to, but I won't carry chamber empty even though I'd probably be better at it than most.

But I have met a few who have told me they carry chamber empty for piece of mind. They are afraid the gun might accidentaly go off. Now the ones carrying modern guns I tell them the gun is totally safe to carry chamber loaded but if any of them had older striker fired autos, yea I'd say either chamber empty or go by a newer gun!

Strangely none of them want to carry a revolver! I point out to them the wheelgun would be chamber loaded and just a pull of the trigger fires it but they prefer autos and using two hands to load it when danger comes.

Deaf


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