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kestrou 12-02-2003 19:31

Vihta Vuori Powder Data
The following data is for Vihta Vuori N340, and was all chronyed at 60 degres through a stock Glock 20 (4.6" barrel) with a Pact Mark IV. Bullets are all 155gr West Coast JFP, with COL of 1.26", primers are Winchester Large Pistol.

Grains FPS FPE Power Factor
5.8 890.4 272.91 138.01
6.0 941.7 305.31 145.97
6.2 976.1 328.01 151.30
6.4 967.9 322.50 150.02
6.6 1011.6 352.31 156.80
6.8 1063.9 389.68 164.91
7.0 1096.3 413.72 169.92
7.2 1090.5 409.41 169.03
7.4 1116.7 429.30 173.09
7.6 1157.6 461.32 179.43
7.8 1184.9 483.32 183.66

VVN340 is a near perfect powder for 10mm loads below "nuclear" - meters very well and the cleanest burning powder I know of!


TeamTupperware 01-09-2004 09:16

Been competing with Viht powders for years...
If you need any data with viht me and let me know. I've probably tried all of them by now. If you want clean, then try N320 (use hot .40 data). If you're trying to build a cannon...try N350, it has very similar characteristics to

TeamTupperware 02-14-2004 08:41

Looking Good
I was going to ask a couple of questions, but you've answered most of them. A stock G20...yup, I think you're just about perfect using N340. I've played with N105 a little, and have yet to try it in either of the bottleneck cases. If you have room in your case with N340 and would like a little softer feeling recoil, you might try a pound of N350 (quite possibly the world's most FORGIVING powder)and go nuts. The beauty of N350 is that it will only burn what it can in the barrel, the rest is in the form of a flame ball coming out the front of the gun.<P>
Make sure you're increasing your spring rate in the G20...recoil is about to get ugly.<P>
If you're going for speed, I've always had good luck with AA#7. Once you get the pressures up, it burns clean. <P>
Double check me sometime, but I think that if you fill both a 9x25 and a 357sig to the top, the sig will hold .3gr more than the 9X25. I think it's due to the internal web thickness.<P>
Lemme know how this all works out for you.
Brant P. Foster

spongeman66 02-26-2004 11:11

I did a water weight measurement of 9X25 vs .357 Sig.
The 9X25 will hold 20% more water weight than the .357 Sig. (1.50 grams vs. 1.24 grams of H2O)
So, for the same size bullet, you can still get ~ 20% more powder (or more) in the 9X25 than the .357 Sig.

Does anybody have any 10mm (or 9X25) data (real world) on N-105? Is it too slow like AA#9 to develop Norma+ loads?

TeamTupperware 02-27-2004 10:34

thanks for the difinitive answer, i must have had it backwards. Approx. 20% more?...ouch! That'll leave a mark!

spongeman66 03-08-2004 10:30

Doesn't it just make you sick that VV seems to have loaded 40 S&W to NEARLY the same (< 1% diff) velocities as 10mm!!!!
They list both with a 5.5" barrel (which is pretty unrealistic)
And the 200grain 40 S&W load comes in at 1118 where the 200 grain 10mm load is 1125!!!
This is pretty consistent for them with like-powder types and bullet weights...

No wonder 10mm isn't more respected....

MrGlock21 03-12-2004 21:40

As for the rather heavier bullets, 180gr and 195gr H&N bullets the best results happend with 3N37 and N105 in my G20. Actually, N105 was hot, awesome! Too bad, I cant recall the exact velocity.

spongeman66 03-20-2004 21:42

Despite the anemic numbers published by VV, I ordered locally and received 1lb of 3n38 and 1lb of n105. Due to the currency exchange, (the store said...) I paid WAAAAY too much for this stuff.... $60 later (remember no haz mat fees for local purchases!?!?) and I am somewhat enlightened of both my wallet and my mind...
I am pretty impressed with both powders. Their measured density in grains/cc is nearly the same. 3n38 is 12.27, and N105 is 12.2. N105 is the first pistol powder I have seen that looks like an extruded rifle powder, and 3n38 is about the same color, but looks like n105 ground up into smaller pieces. I think n105 will dispense OK and 3n38 will dispense as good as anything. Both seemed low flash at all charges tested when shot in the daytime.

I have shot at least a box of DoubleTap ammo through my G29, and recorded the max head diameter of these rounds. The loads below produce similar head diameters or less in MY gun, and do not exceed the max head diameter I recorded with DoubleTap. I worked up both loads below starting at 10.0 grains.

Glock 29 Stock barrel
Rem 2 1/2 primers (be careful if you are using CCI 350s)
New Winchester Brass
COL 1.265
Remington 180 FMJ
5 shot strings
~ 80F
11.9 grains 3n38 Lo=1232 Hi=1245 ES=13 A=1235 SD=5
12.2 grains n105 Lo=1221 Hi=1236 ES=15 A=1228 SD=6
Phenomenal Standard Deviations! WOW!!!
3n38 is maxed at 11.9 in my gun, but n105 has a significant ways to go. It did not show anywhere near the DoubleTap head expansion.

In the IMR thread, McNett has published a 180XTP with 10.8 800X in a g29 @ 1265. 3n38 won't do it, but n105 has potential to match 800X. One more trip to the range should tell...

Tito 03-22-2004 09:28

Thanks Spong!

I am particularly interested in the 3N38, but also the N105.

Why do you believe the 11.9g. of 3N38 is maxed out at 11.9?

When you refer to the "head" do you mean the very bottom of the case wall where the bulging occurs in a non-fully supported chamber?

Any signs of over-pressure with respect to the primer?

Good work, I'm looking forward to your next trip to the range!


spongeman66 03-22-2004 10:27

Head expansion
This is what I am talking about!

Please read the glock faq before attempting to "Work-up" loads.
Stay Safe!

Tito 03-23-2004 11:26

Here's a 3N38 thread from

Tito 03-25-2004 08:19


I was browsing my VV load manual last evening and I must say I am intigued by N105. I think you're on to something! Maybe this is McNett's mysterious powder that he puts in Double Tap?

It's really a shame that VV provides such crappy data. This holds true for not only the 10mm cartridge, but for the applications of their own powder as well. As an example, in the description of their product they describe 3N38 as a good choice for .38 super and 9mm with moderate bullet weights, and then they don't provide load data for a single .38 super load in the table. WTF? They only describe loads for 147g bullets in the 9mm table. WTF?

I think VV powder is good stuff, but the Finns sure aren't marketing it very well!!!!!!!!!!:( :( :(

spongeman66 04-04-2004 21:53

Finished my load workup for N105:
Glock 29 Stock barrel
Rem 2 1/2 primers (be careful if you are using CCI 350s)
New Winchester Brass
COL 1.265
Remington 180 FMJ
5 shot strings
~ 70F
PHP Code:

12.3 n105 Lo=1234 Hi=1274 ES=40 A=1245 SD=16
12.5 n105 Lo
=1252 Hi=1263 ES=11 A=1257 SD=4
12.7 n105 Lo
=1256 Hi=1265 ES=9  A=1259 SD=

Not much difference between 12.5 and 12.7. Both showed acceptable head expansion measurements for my barrel. Personally, I will pick 12.5 grains as my Max.

There was a huge jump in velocity at 12.9 (1281 FPS), but the head expansions were significantly more than I want.

Head expansions were OK in my 6" Jarvis barrel up to 13.1 n105
13.1 n105 Lo=1426 Hi=1446 ES=20 A=1438 SD=9

Stay Safe!

spongeman66 04-04-2004 21:59

As a side note, I shot 10.8 800X behind the same 180 FMJ bullets w/Rem 2 1/2 primers. In MY guns, I got 1221 FPS from my Stock G29, and 1410 FPS from my Jarvis 6" barrel.
11.0 of 800X produced a head expansion greater than desired, so McNett's 10.8 meets the head expansion criteria I have stated above...
800X may do better when ignited by CCI-350s...

spongeman66 04-13-2004 10:00

I am impressed with N105 in all of my guns.
With the 3n38 below, I think I rushed the settling of my powder dispenser, and I got some higher than desired charges. After the first 10 rounds, the Head expansion was at or below my target max.


180 Remington FMJFP
New Winchester Brass
Rem 2 1/2 primers
COL 1.265"
~ 55F
9 or 10 shot strings on all barrels

12.5 N105
Gun/barrel      Lo  Hi ES  Avg SD
G29          1249 1282 33 1266 9
G20          1330 1355 25 1339 7
1911 5"      1342 1380 38 1358 12
G20 Jarvis 6" 1388 1430 42 1412 16

11.9 3n38
TOO HOT: Saw one round with a smailey on G29.
My powder measure may have needed to settle down about 5-10 rounds.
I shot the first 10 rounds in my G29, and I had one round with a
smiley and 6 of 10 had higher than desired head expansion.
The 1911 rounds showed below desired max head expansion, and the G20
had one round at the desired max expansion.
Gun/barrel      Lo  Hi ES  Avg SD
G29          1239 1273 34 1260 10
G20          1302 1335 33 1319 11
1911 5"      1320 1345 25 1331 9
G20 Jarvis 6" 1351 1407 56 1386 15

Stay Safe!

spongeman66 05-22-2004 21:25

200 XTP
New Winchester Brass
Rem 2 1/2 Primer
COL 1.265"
~ 85F
Stock G29
The loads shown below have some more potential, because my max head expansion was not reached with any of these loads. The N105 is becoming compressed enough to start deforming the hollow point a little, so there really isn't much more case capacity left...

N105 Lo Hi ES Avg SD
10.1 1042 1110 18 1102 7
10.3 1104 1114 10 1109 3

Medpilot 2 08-08-2004 17:55

Just got back from the range, and I have to say I like this N105 stuff. No flash, clean burning and good numbers with low pressure.

N105 / Zero 180gr FMJ / Starline brass / CCI 350 / OAL 1.255"

Glock 29 KKM Barrel

5 shot ave


I tried to make a 12.9gr charge, but I could only get the bullet down to about 1.270". Primers started to flatten after 11.0grs. but not bad.

Samething as above except these numbers are with N350

6 shot ave


I had my best accuracy with 8.0grs. There's no flame with this sutff and it burns clean too. I think I like N105 better though.

paalpede 08-22-2004 06:13


I use 10,4 gr v-105 in starline brass and 180 sierra jhp and it gives me 1204fps from stock barrel and 1300 fps from a 6" kkm barrel. Col.1.260.

With fmj's it's about 50 to 100 fps lover.

The big thing is her in Norway you cant get hands on hot factory ammo.
So I don't have a clue how much casehead expansion I should accept.

Could anybody help me?

If i recall on the jhp loads in stock barrel the case head measurd 0.435". About the same with 6.5 gr of n-340 and 180 partizan fmj.

spongeman66 08-22-2004 14:49

It would be best if you can find the measurement to 4 decimal places. I use a stainless dial caliper. It has about 1/16 of an inch between tick marks. I read the first 3 digits directly from the caliper, then I GUESS at the 4th digit. This is a perfectly acceptable scientific method. Scientists do this with Thermometers, pipettes, etc...I practiced with about 5 random casings until I could repeat measurements within about 0.0001.

I will PM you with some more details.
Stay Safe!

paalpede 08-28-2004 12:15

Thank you for the info spongeman66. Could anyone post a picture of a no good smiley? My primers look normal to me, but then again I'am new to glock's.

Here in Norway we have something called fieldshooting. And we have 8 classes.

- finfelt(only .22's)
- grovfelt (.25-38)
- revolverfelt(.38-.45)
-militærfelt(9mm-.45 minimum faktor 120)
magnum1 (.357-.40 faktor 190 + minimum brass leght 25mm)
magnum2 (.41-454)faktor 275
Spesialpistol (.22-.45 pocketpistols only)
spesialrevolver(.22-.45 snubnose only)

I use my G20 in magnum1 and G29 in spesialpistol. So I only need about 1070 fps w/180gr bullets in magnum.

But just for fun I like to see how much power I can get out of my G20.

We are a small group of 10mm owners in norway so the only way to get ammo is to load it. There is some factory ammo you can buy, got an offer on 500 federal classic 180gr. But when it cost allmost 7Nok or one $ for one shell you don't buy.

kestrou 08-28-2004 13:25


I posted one in this thread:

If you see that in your hand - STOP! ;f


paalpede 08-29-2004 02:21

Thank you very much.

I allways thougt the smiley had something to do with the primer.

G-20er 09-13-2004 13:20

Just received my first pound of VV 3N38 powder and will be working up loads in the G-20 using the 200gr. XTP bullet. Due to no real load data being available, an educated guess with aftermarket barrel will put my starting loads at 9.5 grains, then moving to 10, 10.5 and last group to be fired if pressure is still within limits will be 10.8 grains. Will post the data here as soon as I get these rounds through my chronograph. Looking to reach somewhere around 1225 fps.

G-20er 09-19-2004 17:35

Here is the data using VV 3N38 and the 200 grain XTP Bullet. Anybody ever seen a handgun load with a 4.2 on standard deviation. That is great!!! This was the most accurate powder I have used yet. All 10 rounds were in a 3 inch diameter circle from 25 yards using open sights and a rest on barrel side of gun only.

G-20 with stock length KKM barrel
Starline Brass
CCI 300 primers (do not use mag primers with this powder).
OAL 1.250

Please Note: do not try to fire these loads in a stock Glock barrel. 9.3 was max load for the stock Glock barrel. See bottom of page for further information.

9.5 grains:
1) 1163.0 14.8
2) 1160.0 11.8
3) 1152.0 3.8
4) 1134.0 -14.2
5) 1131.0 -17.2 ƒ
6) 1141.0 -7.2
7) 1152.0 3.8
8) 1146.0 -2.2
9) 1149.0 0.8
10) 1154.0 5.8
High: 1163.0
Low: 1131.0
E.S.: 32.0
Ave.: 1148.2
S.D.: 10.4
95%: ±8.0

10 grains:
1) 1196.0 11.4 ƒ
2) 1182.0 -2.6
3) 1194.0 9.4
4) 1192.0 7.4
5) 1174.0 -10.6
6) 1182.0 -2.6
7) 1183.0 -1.6
8) 1182.0 -2.6
9) 1184.0 -0.6
10) 1178.0 -6.6
High: 1196.0
Low: 1174.0
E.S.: 22.0
Ave.: 1184.6
S.D.: 7.0
95%: ±6.0

10.5 grains:
1) 1229.0 7.4 ƒ
2) 1224.0 2.4
3) 1226.0 4.4
4) 1223.0 1.4
5) 1218.0 -3.6
6) 1215.0 -6.6
7) 1221.0 -0.6
8) 1218.0 -3.6
9) 1221.0 -0.6
High: 1229.0
Low: 1215.0
E.S.: 14.0
Ave.: 1221.6
S.D.: 4.2
95%: ±4.0

10.8 grains:
1) 1261.0 8.6 ƒ
2) 1252.0 -0.4
3) 1246.0 -6.4
4) 1252.0 -0.4
5) 1252.0 -0.4
6) 1257.0 4.6
7) 1254.0 1.6
8) 1251.0 -1.4
9) 1248.0 -4.4
High: 1261.0
Low: 1246.0
E.S.: 15.0
Ave.: 1252.4
S.D.: 4.4
95%: ±4.0

Maximum safe load with stock Glock barrel was 9.3 grains of VV 3N38 at 65 F OAT. This load produced only 1135 fps. 9.5 grains don't even try it with the stock Glock barrel. Very heavy smileys on all cases. I believe this powder was actually designed for lighter weight bullets in mind.

Maximum safe load using KKM barrel was 10.5 grains of VV 3N38 at 65 F OAT. This load produced 1221 fps with a SD of a low 4.2 I took the load as high as 10.8 but got light smileys on 75% of brass. 10.8 grains of VV 3N38 gave 1252 fps which matches DoubleTap Ammo; however, Mikes DT Ammo is running at much lower pressures and much safer.

I am learning that with the KKM aftermarket barrel with powders in this burn range, you can load 10% more powder which gives you approximately 110 fps more with same pressure signs as compared to the Glock stock barrel.

Medpilot 2 09-19-2004 18:18

Great info, thanks for posting.

Got to love VV powders.:)

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