Glock Talk

Glock Talk (http://glocktalk.com/forums/index.php)
-   10mm Reloading Forum (http://glocktalk.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=67)
-   -   Winchester Powder Data (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=268411)

BuffaloBo 07-22-2004 13:47

Winchester Powder Data
 
A while ago, another member posted a question regarding why there is no Winchester Data. I replied that Winchester doesn't really offer any serious powders to consider for 10 mm. So yesterday I was preparing for another Chrono session and thought "what the hey" and took out some of my W231 that I use for plinking in other calibers.

Well, I kind of "guestimated" and picked a charge weight.

The components are as follows:

180 Winchester FMJ bullet
Winchester 10mm nickle cases
CCI Standard large pistol primers
6.8 gr W231
Stock G20 except for 22# Wolff recoil spring


The results are as follows in (fps):

1098
1100
1082
1077
1093
1099
1086
1089
1073
1079

Average was 1088 fps
Std Dev 10fps

This is very close to 1100 fps, pretty impressive for a plinking powder. Std Dev is pretty low too. I think the reason why the Std Dev is so low is because W231 "throws" and meters so well.

Primers appeared not to be pushed out or flattened, and case bulge was not extraordinary. I haven't any idea if this is a mid or max charge. It doesn't appear to be a max charge. I feel reasonably comfortable with this load and don't feel compelled to push it farther. W231 burns about as well as any other.

Finally, if the esteemed moderators feel that this thread can be used as a "sticky", then I kindly ask for you guys to consider making it one.


Thanks,


BuffaloBo

Johnny Kitchens 07-22-2004 19:16

Winchester Data...
 
I had wondered about Winchester data myself. I looked until I found an older Winchester loading manual which features loading data for 231, 296, 540, 571, WST,, WSL, WSF and WAP. They used a 5" barrel and a 180gr JHP, with 5.2gr of 231 for 950fps and 29,600psi and 5.8gr of 231 gave 1050fps at 35,600psi. I guess it is good thing not to throw away older printed stuff, like magazines or loading manuals...

grendelbane 07-23-2004 16:01

For several reasons I thought I needed a 10mm lite a couple of years ago. One reason was an injured hand that did not take kindly to excessive recoil. I loaded 5.6 grains of W-W 231 behind an 180 grain JHP. Success! This was mild, accurate, and reliable.

I never throw away a loading manual. In Winchester's case this is extremely important, as they do like to discontinue powders. Found a can of W-W 540 just the other day.

As the chrono shows, 231 runs out of steam real quick. However, if maximum velocity is not required, it can still be a good choice.

Johnny Kitchens 07-23-2004 21:18

Agree!!!
 
I'm glad I didn't throw mine away. I bought two cans of 540 at a gun show. One unopenned the other about 3/4 filled. I got both for just $6.00. I was really happy to see it had a use in the 10mm Auto. I also see that 540 and HS-6 are the same powder...

MCNETT 07-23-2004 23:18

Now we have a Winchester powder sticky!
-Mike

BuffaloBo 08-03-2004 18:32

Some new data today. Same variables as above EXCEPT 7.0 gr W231 AND 5" KKM barrel.

1167
1158
1157
1159
1128
1163
1160
1159
1140
1166


Avg: 1156
Std Dev: 12


Cases look fine, and so do primers.


C'mon guys , am I the only one brave enough to post Winchester data?
:)

BuffaloBo 08-10-2004 13:52

I just picked up a # of WSF. Stay tuned for some upcoming Chrono Results! ;f

BuffaloBo 08-11-2004 21:27

As promised, I have some new data for Winchester WSF.
Same variables as above EXCEPT for the stated powder and 3 samples:

All values are in fps

(7.1 gr WSF)
Avg: 1118
Std Dev: 12
HI: 1139
Lo: 1091


(7.3 gr WSF)
Avg: 1158
Std Dev: 9
Hi: 1176
Lo: 1142

(7.9 gr WSF)
Avg: 1196
Std Dev: 11
Hi: 1214
Lo: 1174


Some observations:
Powder meters very well. All groups were very tight as can be seen by the very low Std Dev's. It does burn a bit on the dirtier side, just likes its cousin 231. Case appearances were normal, and there was no evidence of flattened primers.

I'm not through experimenting with this powder. I do think it is capable of higher numbers. Until next time!





:)

BuffaloBo 08-17-2004 14:56

A couple of entries today.
Same setup as above.


(8.1 gr WSF)
Avg: 1219
Std Dev: 10
Hi: 1229
Lo: 1204


(8.4 gr WSF)
Avg: 1250
Std Dev: 7
Hi: 1258
Lo: 1239

Some observations:

Cases look fine, as do the primers. I'll try to work up to the 1300 fps mark.
According to the various "burn rate" charts, this powder is just slightly faster than IMR-800x, slightly slower than Power Pistol, and seemly about even with Alliant Herco.

BTW, I've had excellent results using this powder in 9mm, 40 Smith and Wesson, and working up with 357 Sig.

BuffaloBo 08-22-2004 17:34

Some new data today
Same setup as previous post(s)

10 shot groups

(8.6 gr WSF)
Avg: 1297
Std Dev: 5
Hi: 1304
Lo: 1291


(8.8 gr WSF)
Avg: 1302
Std Dev: 6
Hi: 1308
Lo: 1294


Some observations:

Well, as you can see I've hit the 1300 fps mark. The 8.6 gr sample is the highest I will load from now on. The 8.8 gr sample had a few flattened primers. So, it's a good indication that things are getting too hot. I'm still amazed at how tight the groups are.

I'm going to include some 357 Sig data extracted from using my G20 with the appropriate barrel @ standard length.

124 gr Speer Gold Dot
Speer Cases
CCI standard small pistol primers
(8.4 gr WSF)


Avg: 1420
Std Dev: 14
Hi: 1434
Lo: 1400

Very good numbers here also.

I'm very pleased with this powder. This will be one of my "base" powders.

G-20er 08-27-2004 20:09

Mike, or any others...

Would you happen to know what one of these powders would work great with the 200gr. XTP?

WSL, Winchester

W-473AA, Winchester

WSF, Winchester

W-540, Winchester

WAP, Winchester
;f

WSF?

BuffaloBo 08-27-2004 20:51

Most of the powders that you list are obsolete, save WSF.
If you have some remnants, don't get too attached to them;f

spongeman66 08-27-2004 21:49

From the Ramshot burn rate chart
I personally would like to find some 571...
Looks like from your selections:
22. Winchester 231
31. Winchester 473AA
33. Winchester WSL
40. Winchester WAP
42. Winchester 540
44. Winchester WSF
48. IMR 800X
56. Alliant Blue Dot
57. Winchester 571

WSF is the 'slowest' you list, but it is still faster than 800X. I find that the powders between 800X and AA#9 are the best 'horsepower' powders for 10mm.
The great thing is YOU can try them all!!!

Have fun!
Sponge

G-20er 08-29-2004 09:28

Check out this link in regards to Winchester 571. Sounds like HS7 is nearly the same so if you didn't like how dirty the HS7 burned then the W571 may not impress you much either.

http://www.reloadbench.com/gloss/hhs7.html

Sounds like we have the same goal...which is trying to get these hunting 200gr XTP to break slightly over 1200 fps. The N-105 was probably the best we can get over the counter at stores. The only way we can probably get better powder was if it was in the same burn speed but sprayed or coated with a Nitroglycerol coating.

See info below:

Adding nitroglycerol to the traditional single base powder makes possible in addition to geometry and coating a third controlled variable of ballistic properties: energy content. Vihtavuori calls powders that have nitroglycerol added (maximum 25%) high energy NC-powders, which form N500 series. Geometrically the powders in the N500 series are equal to the N100 series. Although these new powders have a higher energy content, they do not cause greater wear to the gun. This is because the surface of the powder has been treated with an agent designed to reduce barrel wear. N500 series powders work well at different temperatures, even better than the traditional N100 and N300 series. Temperature sensitivity naturally depends very much on the weapon and on the cartridge. The manufacturing technique employed permits a very high bulk density, which in turn makes it possible to use a bigger charge in a certain limited loading volume. Vihtavuori High Energy powders are available in three burning rates:
N540
Burning rate like N140. Especially for the .308 Winchester.

N550
Burning rate like N150. Especially for the .308 Winchester and .30-06 Springfield.

N560
Burning rate like N160. Especially for .270 Winchester and 6.5 x 55 Swedish Mauser.


N550 is the best powder I can find for my rifle. All we need is this process applied to some pistol powder in the burn rates that we use.

BuffaloBo 09-02-2004 17:49

Some new data today.


Glock 20
5" KKM barrel
CCI Standard LP primers
200 gr Hornady FMJ FP bullets
Winchester WSF powder



(7 shot sample)
8.1 gr WSF
Avg: 1183
Std Dev: 10
Hi: 1194
Lo: 1170


(7 shot sample)
8.4 gr WSF
Avg: 1192
Std Dev: 22
Hi: 1218
Lo: 1153

As usual, excellent numbers with this powder. Cases and primers appeared normal. I'll try to push these numbers higher.

G-20er 09-03-2004 11:01

BuffaloBo great data and thanks for taking the time to share. Have a question...online I found load data for the WSF Powder but it lists 6.2 grains as max charge for your bullet. That means your 8.4 charge is 35% higher than max. What am I missing? I was always under the impression there was a 10% safety margin above max loads listed but not 35%.

http://www.nationalbullet.com/pdf/winpdfcat.pdf see page 23 for further information

Leads me to believe I can get more out of my reloads as long as I back down 5% after I see smileys on the brass.

Any info would be appreciated, or send a private message if necessary.

Thanks

BuffaloBo 09-04-2004 16:33

Quote:

Originally posted by G-20er
BuffaloBo great data and thanks for taking the time to share. Have a question...online I found load data for the WSF Powder but it lists 6.2 grains as max charge for your bullet. That means your 8.4 charge is 35% higher than max. What am I missing? I was always under the impression there was a 10% safety margin above max loads listed but not 35%.

http://www.nationalbullet.com/pdf/winpdfcat.pdf see page 23 for further information

Leads me to believe I can get more out of my reloads as long as I back down 5% after I see smileys on the brass.

Any info would be appreciated, or send a private message if necessary.

Thanks

Thanks, I enjoy doing it. The load data for the 200 gr bullets was built upon what I was doing with the 180 grs.
Before I get too far into it, you may have noticed that most, if not all loading manuals post VERY conservative max charges. It's predominantly due to the potential of unwanted lawsuits from people blowing up guns, hands, eyes, etc..

Out of all the manuals that I've checked out, it appears that Speer 12-13 manuals have the highest numbers, but in fact, are still somewhat low for the potential of most cartriges that they list. Also, from my empirical results I've noticed that some powders are underrated and some are overrated. For example, Blue Dot is overrated and Unique is underrated. So, take everything with a grain salt. When I first started loading I naively thought that because a powder was not listed, it meant that it was not necessarily suited for a particular cartridge/load. The fun that we have as reloaders, is, we can mess around with powders that are not listed in books. As we become more experienced with this craft, we get a feeling of powder types and burning speeds and can make pretty good educated guesses on the potential of powders with particular cartridges.

The 180 gr load was cautiuosly built up with only a very crude method of determining "pressure" signs, i.e. flattening of primers. The fact that I use a KKM barrel with a well supported barrel precludes me from looking for "Glock Smileys". I started by dropping back about 5% of the max load of WSF listed in Speer 12. I compared what I chrono-ed to what Speer 12 said, and found that by dropping 5% gave me just 2fps less than their max. Their test conditions, equipment, enthusiasm, etc, can be radically different from ours.

I then continued to bump up the charge weights slowly and checked what the primers looked like. I settled on 8.6 gr because the next load at 8.8 gr began to flatten the primers.

In building the 200 gr load, I backed off about 6% of my max 180 gr load. The numbers are about what the old Norma 200 gr loads were. I think that there is a little more to be squeezed out with this powder.

As always, be careful with working up loads. If you don't have a chrono, I'd advise that you get one to see the "fruits of your labor". You'd be surprised with the wild discrepancies between what you do and what they post as results.

G-20er 09-05-2004 00:36

Great info and thanks again. I agree with what your saying; however, I usually put a limit of 10% over max as my personal max charge. Interesting to hear that some powders are over rated, I'll be more careful.
Yes I do have a chrono and I have posted data under the Hodgon section. I was working with LongShot and went approximately 10% over max charge which was around 9 grains for the 200gr XTP. Velocity never went much higher than the 8.2 load but what caught my eye was that the ES and SD were getting lower with the 9gr load. In the past I have always found that each powder has its sweet spot so to speak and it usually occurs when the ES and SD are at their lowest. Then just a little over this is where you do no good and only run into pressure signs. Do you agree?
Take a look at the data listed in that section and let me know what you see. I have studied it for hours. All shots fired didn't have flattened primers and never had 1 smiley. The only markings on my brass which every piece had was a small dent/crease about 1/4 inch below top of brass. The dent is only about 1/8 inch long. I think its from the enternal parts of the gun during retraction of brass.

Reloading is an art and I'm loving it. Thanks for being bold and sharing what most people won't.

tlrbud 01-02-2005 20:17

Here's a link to the Winchester Reloading Manual. 10mm is on page 26.

http://www.winchester.com/products/c...loadertoc.aspx

Bud

philpot 09-05-2005 11:42

Man am I glad I came across this thread! I love using W231 but don't always see a load for it in the manuals. It meters more consistantly than the Unique I also use. Thanks for posting this info, also for the Winchester manual link. Phil.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:52.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright 2013, Glock Talk, All Rights Reserved.