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Scatch Maroo 09-28-2004 22:20

Overpenetration?
 
Is overpenetration of a BG an issue with a 10MM?

Scatch Maroo

G33 09-28-2004 23:03

Depends.
What your target is.
Load you use.
Mike has stuff that runs the whole range.

Misses are the real problem.;)

Scatch Maroo 09-29-2004 00:25

I noticed that some of you carry concealed, and I recall many an example of how many odd objects a 10mm could penetrate before being halted, and so I was just curious how likely it is that you'd shoot a bad guy and have the bullet go in and out and on to hit something else.

Scatch Maroo

noway 09-29-2004 00:41

good post.


I have shot quite a few thick hogs with a 10mm. I have yet to recover any bullet. This was with pretty much the common 180/200gr SD bullet and with a few being slow expansion stuff ( XTPs/hardcast/Corbon Penetrators ). I know the hogs are 100% equal to a human but they are close to real world expectations.

If you have one of the hot nuclear loads offer by company X in a heavy weight, I would think overpenetration could be an issue. I'm I concern with it? NO!

if you feel overpenetration is a concern , then get a 40sw "like" performer and don't worry about it.


just my 2 cents thought.......


This message was present and approve by noway
;f

bambihunter 09-29-2004 03:26

I carry DoubleTaps 135 grain loads. While I haven't got to test it on anything other than paper, Mike assures us it blows up when hitting anything of substance. This is actually why I went with that load anyway. I had moved into a subdivision where the houses are close together and I didn't want it to go through my walls and hurting a neighbor yet I wanted plenty of power discharged into the bad guy if needed...

That's what I personally love about the 10mm. It has got to be the most versatile auto cartridge available. What else can you load up this hot, yet load down so mild in an auto cartridge?

RMTactical 09-29-2004 03:32

Depends on a couple of things. Load, distance, weight of bullet, how much tissue it impacts, expansion...

Rule10b5 09-29-2004 09:25

Never done penetration tests with 10mm. With other calibers, though, I've found that unless you're using a heavyweight or bonded bullet once you pass a certain velocity threshold, you're a lot less likely to get overpenetration because the bullet expands like mad or just splatters in the target.

I'd be more worried standing behind a BG that got shot with a 230 gr. .45 ACP Hydrashok at 800-900 fps than a BG shot with a 135 gr. Nosler going at 1600 fps. By the same measure, a 135 gr. Nosler going at 1000 fps scares me more in terms of overpenetration. Just my opinion, of course.

Tazz10m 09-29-2004 13:44

"Overpenetration" is not so much a function of the guns 'caliber' as it is a function of bullet design/shape combined with velocity and weight.

Simply put, a heavy fast pointy FMJ has the most potential to 'zip right thru' because it has the least amount of surface area so it has the least amount of resistance to stopping. A flat or hollow 'pointed' light bullet, is the, for obvious reasons. The faster, lighter, and more 'hollow' the bullet is, the least likely to penetrate, and the more likely it is to 'explode' or 'fragment' or 'deflect' on impact.

When shooting a 'body', there is not much choice as to what a particular bullet is actually going to hit. So, the bullet may zip though, or stop, or something in between. A bullet that passes all the way though and does the most amount of damage on the way is going to be the one with the best 'stopping potential'. Bullets don't have 'stopping power', that is a myth. YOU have the 'power' of decision, and that is no myth.

Bullets that expand create more frontal area after impact and so if they do pass all the way thru a body they are not likely to do much damage to 'another' after because they have already lost so much velocity and are more likely to 'slap' when they hit another object or body and so are less likely to penetrate a 'second body' and really cause 'damage', although, they may still 'hurt'...as in 'ouch!'

The 'ideal' bullet, then, would be one that has the best of all worlds for what your target is. It really doesn't matter what is behind a particular 'target' if the primary objective is to 'stop' the 'target'. If you miss, which IS the most common 'problem', you are potentially screwwwed no matter what bullet you use. Keep in mind that you can still hit the target and still miss if the bullet doesn't damage enough 'vitals'. If you don't 'stop' the 'bad guy', he may 'stop' you, and the hostage or 'innocent' is still screwwwwed by the bad guy, one way or another. And so, each shooter really needs to educate themselves on bullet construction, caliber and velocity, hitting the real target, and all the stuff that goes with it.

The point is, don't listen so much to 'tactical experts' and advertising hype. Learn the facts yourself, pick what you think is an ideal combo for getting the job done, and use that particular combo the way it works best. Try to set up your 'backstop', but again, stopping the problem is the key, so you don't get 'stopped'. If your kid is behind the bad guy, you might miss and hit him, so again, overpenetration really doesn't matter, you CAN'T shoot until you have an 'ok' opportunity. When you CAN shoot, 'overpenetration' will be your friend.

So, the moral of the story is that 'overpenetration' problems are really a myth if you are being a responsible gun user. Remember the rule, be sure of your backstop.

Tennessee Slim 09-29-2004 14:18

Which is more likely to result in the death of you or of an innocent bystander, overpenetration or underpenetration?

Quote:

Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The bullet must pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little, and, in the words of two of the participants in the 1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop, "too little penetration will get you killed."" (emphasis added)

-- Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness
by Special Agent UREY W. PATRICK
FIREARMS TRAINING UNIT
FBI ACADEMY
QUANTICO, VIRGINIA
July 14, 1989

Tazz10m 09-29-2004 15:41

Quote:

Originally posted by Tennessee Slim
Which is more likely to result in the death of you or of an innocent bystander, overpenetration or underpenetration?
The answer is 'missing' the target.

Overpenetration is a myth.

Complete penetration is your friend.

Underpenetration? You might as well be using a BB gun.

A 'properly' designed hollowpoint driven at a high enough velocity will completely explode the target. Think "Praire dog go 'poof!'". So, there is something to be said for properly 'distributed' energy.

;f

bambihunter 09-29-2004 15:51

Quote:

Originally posted by Tazz10m
Think "Praire dog go 'poof!'".
I've got tons of experience and a few pics that perfectly show your description... If anyone wants to see some graphic pics I'll post the link to the pics. ;P

Tito 09-30-2004 11:41

I agree with Special Agent Patrick.

agtman 09-30-2004 18:15

Thanks to Tenn.Slim for citing Special Agent Patrick's article before I did:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm

Be sure to read all the paragraphs under the subheading, "Ammunition Selection Critieria," where he discusses the fiction of "overpenetration" in LE shootings. ;Q

The biggest "problem" in any lethal force encounter - civilian or LE - is MISSING the BG. ;P Not "overpenetration."

Under the stress of the situation, hitting your target COM is really a function of how extensively you've trained/practiced with your chosen 10mm carry load (or its FMJ equivalent).

As I've said before, unlike other cartridges, the 10mm AUTO is a harsh mistress. There's simply no avoiding that if you're going to carrying a "hot" 10mm load for personal SD or duty use, you must put in the time to practice with it regularly to maintain your proficiency, hand-eye coordination and good shooting technique.

http://bren-ten.com/agtman-delta/id6.html

:cool:

Tazz10m 10-01-2004 13:00

Special Agent Patrick's article does have a lot of valid information, but it is still full of incorrect beliefs.

I could spend a lot of time tearing apart that article and back it all up with established documented fact, but, the amount of time that would take would be prohibitive as doing such things would eat too much into my bill paying ability.

Suffice it to say that "Stopping Potential" (my term) is based on a bullet/load's "Damaging Potential" combined with "Shot Placement". Shot Placement is also a functioning part of Damaging Potential.

Penetration and bullet diameter and velocity and shot placement are all wonderful things, but if not combined properly with "PROJECTILE DESIGN" they are not sufficiantly optimized. Further, a big, heavy, round, blunt,object is not sufficiently optimized for effectiveness if there is not enough energy in the loading/gun/missile to drive it at a velocity sufficient to cause 'effective' damage. This is more than likely why the ancient peoples got away from rocks and went to sharp arrows and spears.

Hunters have known all this from the time of the stone age. Arrows are not just designed with penetration, diameter, velocity, and shot placement in mind. Extensive attention has always been given to projectile design.

No one with any actual experience ever uses a pointy solid bullet or target shaped arrowhead to hunt with, because they will just 'zip' right through and the hole made will just close up behind. Futher, an arrowhead with no cutting ability soon gets slowed by friction on the shaft. A sufficiently large, sharp arrowhead does not so much cause tissue and other destruction as much as it causes damage. Sure you can get lucky with your experience and understanding and ability of 'placing' your shots accurately, but unless that is all you have, more is needed for 'effectiveness'.

Due to the dynamics of what it actually takes to be effective on a particular animal, there are an enormous number of possible variations of what a particular projectile might do. Call it 'luck', or lack thereof, or 'fortune', or unfortune, or whatever, either way, both must be considered when it comes to optimizing effectively. The effect of a properly designed bullet/load almost vaporizing a praire dog is a great example of effectiveness, although, when considering the same use of projectile/load design on a human body that might end up pictured in the newspapers or on the 6:OO news, as well as trying to make a positive ID, well, it might be a little less than 'ideal'.

Where is Osama? Did he get vaporized by a well designed projectile? Maybe! ;f But, how do we prove it? If we could prove it, Bush would look much better to many more people right now, and of course worse to some others.

Does it take at least a .22-250 to consistently explode a praire dog? No. Actually, it could easily be done with a 10mm (or even less) with a properly designed and loaded projectile. As a matter of fact it could be done with even an arrow, if that arrow head was designed right and driven at a sufficient velocity. Should we always try to vaporize our targets? No, of course not, but that doesn't mean it isn't sometimes the way to go, and it also doesn't mean that there isn't some bullet/load combo in between over-reacting by over-doing it and under-reacting by under-doing it that will be effective.

When a 'big game' hunter goes after a rhino he doesn't use a hollowpoint bullet, rather, he uses a bullet that is solid. Does this contradict what i've been saying? No. That bullet being used is big and solid and driven at such a high velocity that when it hits heavy bone the bone explodes and sends sharp hard fragments that cut the hell out of anything but bone in their path. Again, sharp, cutting, projectiles driven at sufficient velocity.

Remember, a knife is also a sharp, cutting, projectile driven at sufficient velocity by the hand...and so is a properly designed hunting spear.

Praire dogs, when exploded by bullets, are exploded by sharp, cutting, projectiles driven at high velocity. In this case, even the air trapped and then released all at once by the hollowpoint becomes a 'cutting projectile' especially when combined with the animals 'fluid'. Think of how a 'water jet' can easily cut meat. Add some 'abrasive' and it will cut even hard steel, stone, ceramic, glass, and almost anything else.

My point is, that people need to design, or pick a design, balanced to get the job done and quit being extremists over-simplifing and over-complicating what it takes to be effective in a shooting. 'Light and fast' is an extreme. 'Heavy and slow' is an extreme. Anything over-complicated is doomed to failure. Anything over-simple is also doomed to failure. There is PLENTY of documented evidence that proves what works best. people just need to quit thinking they are so smart now and so stupid in the past. History is FULL of examples of 'what works'...and what doesn't. Ask Mr. Stoneage Mann, he'll tell you what works. He may be a bit brutal, low tech, and inaccurate about it, but he still knows what it takes to be effective...a simple properly placed projectile that causes sufficiently deep cutting DAMAGE, and preferably one that passes ALL THE WAY THROUGH the animal. How many here know that an American Native's bow and arrows were well enough designed to pass ALL the way THROUGH an elk or even a buffalo? It's true.

Form follows function.

Choose the right tool for the job.

Pick your load accordingly. ;f

V Creed 10-06-2004 16:13

The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The bullet must pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little, and, in the words of two of the participants in the 1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop, "too little penetration will get you killed."" (emphasis added)

---------------------------------------

I agree (1) that too little penetration is bad. And (2) alleged "over penetration" I don't worry about.

But, having seen BG's stopped instantly with one shallow penetrating COM pistol bullet, I know that there is more to "stopping power" than deep +12" penetration. Whether it's called shock, or stopping power, or whatever, it exists and isn't a myth.

If not, maybe the FBI can explain why deep penetrating .38 special 158gr RNL bullets don't have much stopping power, but much shallower penetrating .357 mag 125gr JHP's do?

Luckily, 10mm full-velocity ammo in the heavier weights have both deep penetration and decisive stopping power.

Tazz10m 10-06-2004 16:30

Quote:

Originally posted by V Creed
The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The bullet must pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little, and, in the words of two of the participants in the 1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop, "too little penetration will get you killed."" (emphasis added)

---------------------------------------

I agree (1) that too little penetration is bad. And (2) alleged "over penetration" I don't worry about.

But, having seen BG's stopped instantly with one shallow penetrating COM pistol bullet, I know that there is more to "stopping power" than deep +12" penetration. Whether it's called shock, or stopping power, or whatever, it exists and isn't a myth.

If not, maybe the FBI can explain why deep penetrating .38 special 158gr RNL bullets don't have much stopping power, but much shallower penetrating .357 mag 125gr JHP's do?

Luckily, 10mm full-velocity ammo in the heavier weights have both deep penetration and decisive stopping power.

One of the more amazing things about "stopping" is the fact that some people that sustain relatively little damage die anyway because they simply believe they "have been shot so they are going to die" and give up the effort to live. Others, who have been shot all to hell, live quite a long time with such damage because they fight to stay alive.

As for "...why deep penetrating .38 special 158gr RNL bullets don't have much stopping power, but much shallower penetrating .357 mag 125gr JHP's do?" The .357 125gr JHP's (or 124gr JHP's) cause a hell of a lot more damage. Basically it's the difference between a long ice pick, and a shorter double edged knife. The knife is going to cause much more damage, placement for placement.

Tito 10-07-2004 07:55

Quote:

Originally posted by Tazz10m
Ask Mr. Stoneage Mann, he'll tell you what works.
Dude, are you out there?

Darkangel1846 10-10-2004 12:21

Quote:

Originally posted by Tazz10m
One of the more amazing things about "stopping" is the fact that some people that sustain relatively little damage die anyway because they simply believe they "have been shot so they are going to die" and give up the effort to live. Others, who have been shot all to hell, live quite a long time with such damage because they fight to stay alive.

As for "...why deep penetrating .38 special 158gr RNL bullets don't have much stopping power, but much shallower penetrating .357 mag 125gr JHP's do?" The .357 125gr JHP's (or 124gr JHP's) cause a hell of a lot more damage. Basically it's the difference between a long ice pick, and a shorter double edged knife. The knife is going to cause much more damage, placement for placement.

Dude you really think "over penetration" is a myth. I don't really remember where that concern came from except back in the 1960s there were a few cases of this in NYC. I think it was over penetration and not missed shots that killed a bystander.
When I used to work the ER we used to get a lot of through and through shots from the streets...close range 9mm and .38s.(usually shoot outs with the LEOs)
I think I might do a little research about "Over Penetration", see if it really is a myth.

Tazz10m 10-10-2004 23:42

Quote:

Originally posted by Tito
Dude, are you out there?

Yup! ;f

Study your anthropology. Even in North America there were people living "in the stone age" as near back as about 1860-1870 and maybe even later. In some parts of the world there still may be.

Tazz10m 10-10-2004 23:56

Quote:

Originally posted by Darkangel1846
Dude you really think "over penetration" is a myth. I don't really remember where that concern came from except back in the 1960s there were a few cases of this in NYC. I think it was over penetration and not missed shots that killed a bystander.
When I used to work the ER we used to get a lot of through and through shots from the streets...close range 9mm and .38s.(usually shoot outs with the LEOs)
I think I might do a little research about "Over Penetration", see if it really is a myth.

Until just a few years ago, as a matter of policy NYPD were still using FMJ's and RNL's, thanks to some "expert".

When you worked the ER, how many 'innocent' people were seriously injured by hollowpoints that had already penetrated all the way through a criminal and then hit them? I would suspect not many at all if not none at all.

Up until just a few years ago, an average of 4 out of 5 shots fired by the NYPD completely missed their 'targets' in 'shootouts'.

Do your research, and let us know what you come up with.


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