Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Out West
Originally Posted by N/Apower
Both cause tissue to be forced away from their path at a 90* angle. Further, we are talking about hydraulic pressure in a system (vessels). A system with a myriad of valves, and weak-points all throughout it. The impact of a projectile on a vessel in the chest would cause plenty of other issues before it ruptured something in the brain.
Further, whether or not one is to accept this, "TBI" as fact, one cannot dispute that it is highly un-reliable. A psychological stop is much more likely than a "TBI" stop, if you will. There are numerous people alive who will attest to that, after having survived a GSW to the thoracic cavity.
Yes, there are things beyond what jello shows us that occur, and I cannot rule out that ruptured vessels in the brain may occur, but I can say that that is the last thing I want to be banking on as a mechanism of "stopping" someone from their course of action.
What accounts for when this doesn't happen? Not every heart/lung-shot deer drops in its tracks. By all logic, this means that TBI is just as likely as it is not, even assuming that is the mechanism at all. Your own example shows the fallacy considering it a quantifiable, reliable wounding mechanism.
You think Courtney and Courtney and Dr. Roberts aren't peddaling their own kool-aid? Everyone is selling something. Everyone has an agenda. It's just life.
The fact that there is a debate at all shows that there are things we do not understand. Some scientists stick to measurable, or more easily quantifiable outcomes more strictly than others. Considering the myriad of responses animals and humans have in response to piercing trauma, it is impractical to try to credit the external force with 100% of the outcome. Therefor, I feel that very tangible tests are best when measuring ammunition against ammunition.
That which produces the largest permanent hole, has better effect than that which produces the smallest, with regard to cessation of target action. As the disparity narrows, so does the effectiveness difference, to the point to where a smaller permanent cavity producing projectile, in a certain circumstance, may do better than a different one, because of immeasurable phenomina, or phenomina that is so numerous and inter-related as to be immesurable.
At what point does TC outweigh CC? To what extent? Does it ever?
These are all intangibles.
If I have a choice between equal CC and TC, and equal CC and larger TC, Obviously I want the equal CC and larger TC, but what if it were reversed?
Beyond blood volume loss, expansion, and penetration, and tissue crushed, this is a science of grays. The "gello shooters" are not ignoring this, rather they are choosing not to try to measure that which cannot be quantified and sticking with what can.
Originally Posted by N/Apower
Personally, my issue is this:
Dr. Courtney's work suggests that a light, fast, violently fragmenting or expanding JHP is the way to go.
The Courtneys take the position that the more, faster, harder, etc. with kinetic energy transfer, the better--and I agree.
The problem arises when you step out into the real world.
You cannot have a 9mm/.45/357SIG, whatever, that violently fragments/expands and still penetrates 12" through a variety of barriers. It just doesn't work that way.
So what you have now, is a decision to make: Do you want to cause a TBI (assuming you can, which, every study shown shows that even if this IS possible, it is FAR from assured, even with high-powered rifles), or do you want to ensure 12" of penetration in your target?
I think we can all agree that if a bullet could violently expand and fragment and all that and still penetrate 12" after various barriers, that THAT is the round we would want. However, since we can't have that (yet, anyways), we are forced to choose.
C&C would champion the fragmenting or violently expanding bullet.
I would propose that this is a poor decision.
TBI is iffy, even if we accept that it is real. However, there is nothing "iffy" about the fact that numerous people have been killed because they used ammunition that would not penetrate deep enough to kill their assailant.
Officer Coates, FBI Miami shootout, a local cop in dallas using 55gr BST's trying to shoot a perp in a car, the list goes on and on and on.
Therefor, while I think the 357SIG's extra energy on soft tissue is certainly a good thing (how could it not be?), I don't think that one should use 115gr Corbon's, or that one should state that the 357SIG is "far superior" to a 147gr 9mm that expands properly.
*With regards to damage of microvascular structures due to remote injury, if the retinal structures, and other various delicate vessels in the body are not damaged, I do not feel that the brain is at much risk with regard to any immediate effect. Kindof like worrying about blowing up the transmission in a corvette when doing a burn-out on a set of spare tires. When I start hearing about blindness and occular hemmhoraging due to GSW's to other parts of the body, then I will give this phenomina more thought.
I don't know what your job title is but I'ld bet quite a bit of money it ain't "Doctor". I've never been in the medical profession and it seems I know more than you. Some of what you post is just plain think-you-know but you just plain don't. I'm not saying this to ridicule you, it's just a fact.
As for what you seem to think is required toward diagnosing mild to moderate TBI, how about I just explain a few things to you.
In the sense of objectivity and comprehensive thought (whether one chooses to consider it or not), I think the following is important to keep in mind toward Dr. Courtney's scientific study of BPW and it's possible attributes of quicker incapacitation some percentage of the time (not to mention among quite a bit of other supporting scientific study), in reguard to actually finding symptoms.
With reguard to brain trauma, how can those that treat gunshot wound victims know if there was remote brain damage or not? MRIs and CT scans don't usually even tell doctors if someone has a concussion.
Much of mild traumatic brain injury is far from being understood, let alone they don't know how to diagnose much of it. Yet mild to moderate TBI still clearly exists even though they have trouble with the explanation part.
The defense dept has been throwing out grant money to study all kinds of forms of brain injury for years now.
The same mild TBI that they don't fully know how to diagnose or treat yet, sometimes the symptoms go away by themselves. So far as they know right now, the effects of mild TBI can disappear in seconds to years, after whatever happened to happen to cause it to happen.
All the doctors can do is see if the patient has symptoms of being mentally screwed up in any way, physical or mental. Brain injury does not necessarily mean brain damage.
Grade 1 concussion is defined as mild, very brief, neurological disturbance such as confusion, without loss of consciousness. And therefore anyone treating a gunshot wound victim may very well NOT know the person had a grade 1 concussion, as the symptoms for it may very well have subsided by the time the vitim was seen by anyone with a medical background.
A concussion is a traumatically induced transient loss of normal brain function.
Who knows if they (doctors and such) can even explain a fraction of what diagnosing the brain all actually entails?
So what about the shootees on the good side paying attention to what happens to the BGs after they are shot by whatever round? Much of the time they can't remember what they did themselves.
They (doctors and such) already know that anatomical imaging such as computerized tomography (CT scans) and magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) don't always tell them much of anything in relation to obvious signs of mild TBI. Contrast-enhanced CT scans help a little, but still leave some to be desired.
So now a days studies and testing are being done with functional imaging like: Functional MRI (fMRI), Positron emission tomography (PET scanning), Single photon emission computed tomography (SPECT scan), and ELECTRO-PHYSIOLOGICAL STUDIES (EEG, evoked potentials, and 'brain mapping').
And thats besides Neuro-psychological (NP) testing.
Brain injury can simply be trivial, and completely reversible by natural healing processes, again, taking anywhere from seconds to years. The symptoms of concussion alone, limited to what they know so far are varying degrees of impairment of limb movement, vision, speech, and cognitive function,
not to mention coma.
Another thing to keep in mind is if there isn't a symptom, they don't look for a cause or vis versa. Especially symtoms that may subside before the GSW victim gets to the folks meant to treat the GSW.
In a way, this leaves believers and nonbelievers in a predicament as to who's right or wrong. All I know is we have a more than fair amount of supporting evidence (IMO), with zero evidence going against it. Problem at this point and time is, both sides still need "proof" which will require further scientific analysis/study which neither has, and doesn't seem to be available to us either way if any does exist somewhere.
That said, I don't feel there probably have to be ruptured vessels in the brain for mild to moderate TBI to have occured. And BTW, who here was claiming mild to moderate TBI being a quantifiable, reliable wounding mechanism. You made that up in your own mind!
is trying to credit what
external force with 100% of what
outcome??? What are you talking about?
To say; "That which produces the largest permanent hole, has better effect than that which produces the smallest, with regard to cessation of target action.", would be akin to saying all 45 Auto loads are better than any 9mm Luger loads in terms of quickest to incapacitate a BG. Are you saying that?
You said; "Beyond blood volume loss, expansion, and penetration, and tissue crushed, this is a science of grays. The "gello shooters" are not ignoring this, rather they are choosing not to try to measure that which cannot be quantified and sticking with what can
." That said, what are they sticking with that can, be measured?
As for what you think the Courtney's work tells you to do, you are dead wrong!!! The position the Courtney's actually take is that proper penetration depth must be met for any personal risk assessment one deems neccessary before the amount of BPW is taken into account. That is explicitly stated in their paper on the deer incapacitation study.
This is a fraction of the reason why uz2bUSMC tells you you don't know what you're talking about because you clearly don't.
I have run the numbers for various common SD loads where I could get the pertinent apples to apples comparison data so we can see how different loads stack up against each other. The list is as follows -
The kinetic energy is listed after "KE", penetration depth is listed after "P" and is based on clothed gel for ALL rounds, expanded bullet diameter is listed after "E", wound volume is listed in cubic inches(ci) and is based on 12" penetration for ALL rounds unless a specific round couldn't manage 12" penetration, and in the last column in pounds per square inch(psi) is the peak ballistic pressure wave. Please note - for PBPW, for any round that fragmented to any extent, the PBPW is actually higher than what's shown. All PBPW numbers assume zero fragmentation. Very generally, for the PERCENTAGE a round fragments, that same percentage would be added to the PBPW in psi.
Most of the HST #s and Speer Gold Dot #s are based on averages from the ATK workshop results with various police departments. Those that aren't based on an average were tested only 1 time. Those workshop results can be viewed in their entirety here - http://www.le.atk.com/general/irl/woundballistics.aspx
Win 380auto T Series, 95gr, 1000fps, KE=211, P=7.95, E=.64, 2.6ci, 507psi
Speer 38special+P GD, 135gr, 860fps, KE=222, P=11.75, E=.59, 3.2ci, 361psi
Win 38spcl T Series+P, 130gr, 925fps, KE=247, P=12.00, E=.67, 4.2ci, 393psi
Win 9mm+P+ Ranger, 115gr, 1335fps, KE=455, P=8.50, E=.81, 4.4ci, 1023psi
DT 9mm+P Gold Dot, 115gr, 1415fps, KE=511, P=12.00, E=.70, 4.6ci, 813psi
DT 9mm+P Gold Dot, 124gr, 1310fps, KE=472, P=13.25, E=.70, 4.6ci, 684psi
Federal 9mm+P HST, 124gr, 1200fps, KE=396, P=12.50, E=.66, 4.1ci, 605psi
Federal 9mm HST,,,, 124gr, 1150fps, KE=364, P=13.90, E=.64, 3.9ci, 501psi
Win9mm+P T Series, 124gr, 1180fps, KE=383, P=13.90, E=.67, 4.2ci, 526psi
Win9mm +P Bonded, 124gr, 1180fps, KE=383, P=18.70, E=.54, 2.7ci, 392psi
Win9mm+P+TSeries, 127gr, 1250fps, KE=441, P=12.20, E=.68, 4.4ci, 691psi
DT 9mm+P Gold Dot, 147gr, 1125fps, KE=413, P=14.00, E=.66, 4.1ci, 563psi
Federal 9mm HST,,,, 147gr, 1000fps, KE=326, P=14.40, E=.66, 4.1ci, 433psi
Speer 9mm GD,,,,,,,, 147gr,, 990fps, KE=320, P=15.25, E=.58, 3.2ci, 401psi
Win 9mm T Series,,,, 147gr,, 990fps, KE=320, P=14.50, E=.66, 4.1ci, 422psi
Win 9mm Bonded,,,,, 147gr,, 995fps, KE=323, P=16.50, E=.59, 3.3ci, 374psi
DT 357SIG Gold Dot, 115gr, 1550fps, KE=613, P=12.12, E=.71, 4.8ci, 955psi
DT 357SIG Gold Dot, 125gr, 1450fps, KE=584, P=14.50, E=.66, 4.1ci, 770psi
Win357SIG T Series, 125gr, 1350fps, KE=506, P=12.10, E=.66, 4.1ci, 798psi
Win357SIG Bonded,, 125gr, 1350fps, KE=506, P=15.90, E=.57, 3.1ci, 608psi
DT 357SIG Gold Dot, 147gr, 1250fps, KE=510, P=14.75, E=.73, 5.0ci, 661psi
DT 357mag Gold Dot, 125gr, 1600fps, KE=710, P=12.75, E=.69, 4.5ci, 1063psi
Speer SB 357magGD, 125gr,,, 990fps, KE=294, P=14.50, E=.65, 4.0ci, 388psi
Win 357magSilvertip, 145gr, 1290fps,, KE=536, P=12.50, E=.59, 3.3ci, 819psi
DT 357mag Gold Dot, 158gr, 1400fps, KE=688, P=19.00, E=.56, 3.0ci, 692psi
DT 9X25 Gold Dot, 115gr, 1800fps, KE=827, P=10.00, E=.64, 3.2ci, 1579psi
DT 9X25 Gold Dot, 125gr, 1725fps, KE=826, P=15.00, E=.74, 5.2ci, 1051psi
DT 9X25 Gold Dot, 147gr, 1550fps, KE=784, P=17.50, E=.68, 4.4ci,, 856psi
DT 40S&W Nosler,,,, 135gr, 1375fps, KE=567, P=12.10, E=.72, 4.9ci, 894psi
DT 40S&W Gold Dot, 155gr, 1275fps, KE=559, P=13.00, E=.76, 5.4ci, 825psi
DT 40S&W Gold Dot, 165gr, 1200fps, KE=528, P=14.00, E=.70, 4.6ci, 721psi
Rem Golden Saber,,, 165gr, 1150fps, KE=485, P=14.00, E=.67, 4.2ci, 662psi
Federal 40S&W HST, 165gr, 1130fps, KE=468, P=14.00, E=.75, 5.3ci, 637psi
Win40S&W T Series, 165gr, 1140fps, KE=476, P=13.20, E=.70, 4.6ci, 690psi
Win 40S&W Bonded, 165gr, 1140fps, KE=476, P=19.00, E=.55, 2.9ci, 479psi
Speer 40S&W GD,,,, 180gr. 1025fps, KE=420, P=11.75, E=.72, 4.9ci, 683psi
DT 40S&W Gold Dot, 180gr, 1100fps, KE=484, P=14.75, E=.68, 4.4ci, 626psi
Federal 40S&W HST, 180gr, 1010fps, KE=408, P=13.40, E=.77, 5.6ci, 582psi
Rem JHP (not GS),,,, 180gr, 1015fps, KE=412, P=13.25, E=.69, 4.5ci, 594psi
Win40S&W T Series, 180gr,,, 990fps, KE=392, P=14.30, E=.70, 4.6ci, 524psi
Win 40S&W Bonded, 180gr,, 1070fps, KE=458, P=21.80, E=.51, 2.5ci, 402psi
DT 10mm Nosler,,,, 135gr, 1600fps, KE=767, P=11.00, E=.70, 4.2ci, 1332psi
DT 10mm Gold Dot, 155gr, 1475fps, KE=749, P=13.50, E=.88, 7.3ci, 1061psi
DT 10mm G. Saber, 165gr, 1425fps, KE=744, P=14.75, E=.82, 6.3ci, 964psi
DT 10mm Gold Dot, 165gr, 1400psi, KE=718, P=14.25, E=1.02, 9.8ci, 962psi
DT 10mm Gold Dot, 180gr, 1300fps, KE=675, P=15.25, E=.96, 8.7ci, 846psi
DT 10mm G. Saber, 180gr, 1330fps, KE=707, P=16.00, E=.85, 6.8ci, 844psi
DT 10mm Hor. XTP, 180gr, 1350fps, KE=728, P=17.25, E=.77, 5.6ci, 808psi
DT 10mm Hor. XTP, 200gr, 1250fps, KE=694, P=19.50, E=.72, 4.9ci, 680psi
Win 45GAP T Series, 230gr, 905fps, KE=418, P=12.70, E=.72, 4.9ci, 630psi
DT 45auto Gold Dot, 185gr, 1225fps, KE=616, P=12.75, E=.82, 6.3ci, 923psi
Rem45auto G Saber, 185gr, 1140fps, KE=534, P=14.25, E=.70, 4.6ci, 716psi
Win45auto Silvertip, 185gr, 1000fps, KE=411, P=13.25, E=.70, 4.6ci, 593psi
DT 45auto Gold Dot, 200gr, 1125fps, KE=562, P=14.25, E=.88, 7.3ci, 753psi
DT 45auto Gold Dot, 230gr, 1010fps, KE=521, P=15.25, E=.95, 8.5ci, 653psi
Federal45auto+P HST,230gr, 950fps, KE=461, P=14.60, E=.85, 6.8ci, 603psi
Federal 45auto HST, 230gr,, 890fps, KE=405, P=14.40, E=.86, 7.0ci, 537psi
Speer 45auto G Dot, 230gr,, 890fps, KE=405, P=13.50, E=.70, 4.6ci, 573psi
Rem45auto G Saber, 230gr,, 875fps, KE=391, P=14.00, E=.74, 5.2ci, 534psi
Win 45auto T Series, 230gr, 905fps, KE=418, P=12.70, E=.72, 4.9ci, 630psi
Win45auto+PTSeries, 230gr, 990fps, KE=500, P=15.20, E=.78, 5.7ci, 628psi
Win 45 auto Bonded, 230gr, 905fps, KE=418, P=15.80, E=.67, 4.2ci, 506psi
So what you consider to be a "poor decision", doesn't have to be.
You said; "However, there is nothing "iffy" about the fact that numerous people have been killed because they used ammunition that would not penetrate deep enough to kill their assailant." So what about the old 158gr 38 Special load that used to be popular among LE that they finally dubbed the "Widow Maker" for that exact reason EXCEPT that it did penetrate far enough?
What about where you say; "Therefor, while I think the 357SIG's extra energy on soft tissue is certainly a good thing (how could it not be?), I don't think that one should use 115gr Corbon's, or that one should state that the 357SIG is "far superior" to a 147gr 9mm that expands properly."???
In what way do you suggest the 357SIG's extra energy on soft tissue is certainly a good thing to the extent of suggesting is must be? Not to mention that everyone's definition of far superior
probably varies by quite a bit.
As for sticking up for 9mm, at least from the standpoint of you suggesting the 357SIG is not far superior to it, consider what SSA Urey Patrick of the Firearms Training Unit, FBI Academy, Quantico, VA, when asked; "Are you saying the 9mm is no good?" , replied;
"No, we are saying it is as good as the 38 Special, which has served us for a long time. It has severe limitations
, which we are not willing to accept. It is woefully inadequate
for shooting at people in cars, for example, and over half of our shootings involve vehicles. It is a marginally adequate
wounding agent. We have had a number of 9mm shootings over the past couple of years, and if you define a good shooting as one in which the subject stops whatever he was doing when he gets shot, we have yet to have a good one, and we are hitting our adversaries multiple times.
We have shot half a dozen dogs in the past year and have not killed one
yet, although we have run up a significant veteranary bill. The 9mm with proper ammunition is not a bad round. It is just no where near as effective
as the 10mm and 45 offerings and the disparity between it and the larger calibers has remained a constant
throughout all the testing we have done over the past two years."
Yet many of us have learned just how superior the 357SIG is according to those who have used both against humans and animals. Texas DPS alone has praised it.
Much of your comentary ranges from far reaching to plain absurd at best. Have you ever actually read Dr. Courtney's paper on the deer study?
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