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Old 02-16-2010, 21:30   #478
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Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 585
Originally Posted by glock20c10mm View Post
I've seen pics that say different, not to mention what the person who saw first hand had to say. Clearly a difference. Not to mention the testimony of others here on GT based on animals.

Don't know what the medical examiners think they claim to have seen, but I have yet to hear of a medical examiner who had any clue what handgun round a BG (or GG I guess) was shot with and only had a clue from recovered bullets where they could simply measure caliber size if they cared to. I say this based on what others have said who claim to be in a similar medical background profession as you.

Are these special MEs you refer to that are privy to more info than the average emergency room visits encountered?

Is there anyone out there that can verify what I'm saying about more visible wound damage in animals when using 357SIG over 9mm? Preferably when comparing 125gr 357SIG loads @ 1350fps - 1450fps to 147gr 9mm loads at 800fps - 900fps. I only put this in bold and larger type for the idea that maybe more will notice it than may have otherwise.
You need to compare apples to apples here. I believe the story we read about the 357SIG hitting the dog and blowing it's stuffin's out involved a frangible bullet (Corbon) that expanded violently. 147gr 9mm's are normally not frangible. So we need to compare apples to apples if we are to say "The velocity made a difference". Say, gold-dot to gold-dot, or hst to hst, or something of the like. I rummaged around the 'net looking for some pix, and will continue to rummage.

*Frangible, I don't mean like a Glaser, or Sinterfire, I mean as in, known for fragmenting. I just wanted to clear that up.

The ME I referred to were those referenced by Lookin4u in a past thread here. Huge thread, surely you remember it? Shouldn't be hard to find.

ETA: Here is what I found of interest:

FWIW, the 9mm XTP at about 1240 ft/sec, as well as the Winchester Ranger and 230-gr. Golden Sabers worked consistently well, but to my eyes none performed better than the other. If viewing only the javelina at the moment it was shot, I wouldn't have been able to say whether it had been shot with 9mm or 45 ammo!
The Texas whitetail deer I've shot with 9mm, 38 Super, .44 Special, .45 Colt and .45 ACP have been pretty uniform in their responses to being shot. A few were instantly incapacitated and never got to their feet; they kicked a bit and then were done. Most jumped, ran a few yards and then keeled over. This is what I've seen time and again with these calibers. I have not used the big magnums considered more appropriate for this type activity so I cannot accurately comment on them. The interesting thing to me is that these smallish 110-lb. animals reacted essentially the same way whether hit with a 124-gr. 9mm XTP at 1240 ft/sec or a handloaded 255-gr. CSWC @ 900 ft/sec from the .45 Colt revolver! Those shot with 230-gr. Golden Sabers handloaded to about 950 ft/sec reacted most similarly to the ones shot with my 38 Super's 147-gr. Golden Saber at just under 1200 ft/sec!

Read the whole article, it's pretty interesting, I think, and the man has obviously "been there, done that" with regards to shooting lots of animals with zippy .355's and slow .45's.

What I personally drew from it:

We know the 9mm and the .45 do NOT create identical permanent wound-cavities. The .45 creates a larger one. Yet the 9mm performed just the same as the .45. Why? Velocity? TC made up for the smaller permanent cavity? I won't even pretend to know. However, these experiences also seem to discount BPW having any effect, at least that this author saw. If a lightweight animal being hit with a zippy round reacted the same as a lightweight animal being hit with a 900fps hard cast bullet, I would say BPW was not at play here.

Included is a picture of a wound from a .45 and from a 127 +P+. Sadly, they are close-ups and you can't tell much.

Again, from the article:
Yet, on animals from the size of Texas whitetail deer to javelina, I have seen the high-velocity 9mm JHP in +P trim demonstrate better than expected "stopping" and "killing power." This includes both 115-gr. +P loads from Corbon as well as the Federal +P+ 115-gr. law enforcement loads. Yet neither penetrates the mandated 12" minimum in ballistic gelatin. The Corbon frequently hits around 1400 ft/sec from my Hi Powers with the Federal version about 50 to 60 ft/sec behind. Either of these two 9mm rounds get around 10" penetration in gelatin, falling shy of the FBI's original penetration requirements. At the same time, in the animals I've shot with these loads, damage has been more than expected
I don't think this means they did BETTER than the .45, but that they did as well (reading the whole article), and he could not account for it. However, I would hazard a guess that the damage he referred to these rounds causing was a factor of fragmentation and not necessarily velocity. Ergo, chalk it up to bullet design instead of velocity (I guess you could argue that velocity caused fragmentation, but then, one could just argue in favor of using Glasers or something, not something I would do.). As he said later in the article, a 185gr Corbon did the same thing.


It seems that regardless of the mechanism used, 9mm, .45, .40, and .357 SIG all do about the same darn thing when you use the right ammo. You pays your moneys, you makes your choice, and you do your damndest to defend it on some random internet forum.

Last edited by N/Apower; 02-16-2010 at 21:50..
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