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Old 08-27-2011, 18:15   #143
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 39,953
Originally Posted by poodleshooter1 View Post
First of all, the police don't start "prosecution", the prosecutor does. If you are really an attorney, you should know that.
Actually, in the real world, (a) everything starts with the police and (b) Kentucky law, KRS 503.085, the statute I mentioned that prohibits the police from arresting you for a self-defense shooting - the same one I teach classes on to several different law enforcement agencies - says: "As used in this subsection, the term "criminal prosecution" includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant."

So yes, I'm really an attorney and you're really not.

You're wrong, and biased. It is foolish to give the advice that you have to convince the police at the scene that you are innocent as DeafSmith stated. Again, if you are really an attorney, you should know better. The police merely arrest people for crimes. It is the responsibility of the prosecution to convince a jury that you committed it. It is up to your attorney, to convince the jury that you didn't. The jury decideds guilt. NOT the police. The scene of the crime is not a court room. Maybe in your brand of LE the cops are judge, jury and executioner.

More people have been sent to prison or wrongly convicted because of the idiotic advice of convincing the police at the scene that you are innocent. It's because of idiotic advice like that that most arrests turn into convictions. Most people are not attorneys and not in a position to adequately represent themselves. Furthermore, again, Cops are not a jury, judge, or attorneys, they have neither the education nor the credentials to decide on legal matters. The best advice is to let counsel who has spent years in law school, passed the bar exam, and has decades of experience under their belt to represent you in such a case. But go ahead, keep telling Joe Bob Farmer to represent himself in front of your fantasy court held by the police at the scene. I'm really starting to doubt that you are really an attorney....or is it that you are also a Cop and enjoy baiting people?

You really have no idea what you are talking about. To simplify for anyone who may be mislead by the complete nonsense you wrote here:

A self-defense shooting means you intentionally shot someone and either injured or killed them.

Intentionally shooting someone and either injuring or killing them is also the definition of murder, or a couple of degrees of felony assault here (different titles in different states).

Under Kentucky law, (and some other recent "castle doctrine" adopting states), "A person who uses force as permitted in KRS 503.050, 503.055, 503.070, and 503.080 (self defense, defense of another and defense of property) is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force...." (that includes immunity from arrest - see above)

The difference between using force "as permitted in KRS 503.050, 503.055, 503.070, and 503.080" and illegally using force to commit murder or assault is your own subjective belief that you were in danger of death, serious physical injury, etc. That means, if you don't say it, the police don't know it.

If you don't state your subjective reason for shooting, it is up to the discretion of the police whether to charge you with a crime and put you in jail. No attorneys are involved at that point (no they don't have to wait for yours to show up and no, they don't necessarily care what you have to say after they put you in jail).

If the police arest you, the next step may be the grand jury - the prosecutor can take it there (usually) or if he doesn't, the police or even a private citizen can present the case. You have no right to appear or speak to the grand jury and if you do appear, at your request, it is with no attorney. The prosecutor is the only lawyer they speak to and they decide whether to send you to the circuit court. Normally, only the police appear to indict you and, if you gave them a reason for the shooting, they will tell the grand jury - that's the only way they are going to hear your defense unless the prosecutor decides to allow you to appear.

If you get a preliminary hearing before the grand jury meets, that may be a chance for your lawyer to help you, but it also doesn't necessarily stop the prosecution if the judge at the preliminary hearing dismisses your charge - the prosecutor, cops or others can still go to the grand jury. If the grand jury meets first, you don't get a hearing.

At that point, you have already spent plenty of money and, unless you can make a very high bond, you've been in jail for a few weeks and may be unemployed, etc.

From there you go to circuit court, where you are a criminal defendant and the prosecutor may ffer to let you plead to a lesser felony, if he's busy, but why? It costs him nothing to prosecute you - just gets him more publicity for the next election. That's not the best time to realize maybe you should have told the police why you shot.

How does this work in the real world? Louisville Metro Police officer McKenzie Mattingly shot and killed a criminal who tried to rob him during an undercover operation. The shooting looked questionable, even though the guy was armed, and Mattingly decided not to make a statement until he spoke to his lawyer. Mattingly lost his job, home, retirement, and everything he had before finally being found not guilty, based on self-defense, at trial. Unfortunately, some police tend to believe that crap advice they get about not making a statement until they talk to a lawyer too. In the same city, many more questionable shootings have been cleared by a grand jury - but in each one the officers cooperated at the scene of the shooting.
Here's an article about it, there are many more.

He did not get his job or money back when he was found "not guilty."

I know from reading your crazy rant that you won't get it, but this is for others who will. This is what I mean when I say "don't talk to the police" in a justified shooting case is bad advice.

In an unjustified shooting? May as well not talk to the police and good luck.
Anti-gun liberals can only call us idiots; it takes an idiot with a gun to prove them right.
- Me, 2014.

Last edited by Bren; 08-27-2011 at 18:20..
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