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Old 10-05-2012, 12:24   #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IvanVic View Post
No, it doesn't. Your argument is stupid, plain and simple, and I'm against gay marriage.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by English View Post
"Natural" is what can be observed in nature. As such it can be something characteristic of a very small minority of individuals. For what it is worth, "normal" is something which can be observed in a majority.

The purpose of using a natural example as the basis of argument in this case is to show that homosexuality is not a "choice" by an individual equivalent to deciding that Pepsi is superior to Coke but something which, by whatever means is built in to the individual and as far as we know cannot be changed.

You don't like the idea of comparing ourselves to intellectually inferior animals but if we use a little intelligence and knowledge it can be very informative. Our closest living relatives are the chimpanzees and for medical experimentation the results found on them are most like the results found on humans where those found on rats, for example, are often different. But our social and sexual systems are very different from chimpanzees because of the environmental forces acting on us since we diverged from our common ancestor. Rabbits are rather further separated from humans, but are still relatives which are useful for much medical experimentation. But rabbits do eat their own doo doo and fall ill if they are prevented from doing so. Why should that be? Because they live on hard to digest grasses which they digest with the aid of bacteria in their guts. But the bacteria don't have enough time to do so and so the rabbit needs to pass the same food through its gut twice. Cattle have the same problem but they have evolved a second stomach and regurgitate partly digested grass to chew it again after it has beed partly digested. This is what we know as chewing the cud. You might like to think of it as eating their own vomit!

So, we have to know enough not to compare our social systems to those of chimpanzees or our digestive systems to rabbits or cattle but otherwise our biochemistries are very similar.

When we can see such commonality across the animal world then something such as homosexuality, which probably can be seen in every species of mammal and bird we care to study, obviously has the same root cause as it does in humans. As such it cannot possibly be a conscious choice of what is most fun or however you might think of it. This is not lowering ourselves to equality with animals except in those things in which we are equal. Where we differ is that we have the ability to think and gain knowledge in the form of theories which we can refine or discard as facts dictate. Some of us have the intelligence and knowledge to understand that. Others are either too dumb or too incapable of seeing past their religious beliefs to do so. In this case it is you who is denying the most basic thing that makes you different from other animals - your ability to think and so discover the nature of things you can observe and learn about.

Since you are capable of using a computer on the internet and writing as you do and presumably are able to chew gum at the same time, you can't simply be too dumb. The information is all around you but only you can decide to make the effort to study it with an open mind. Opening your mind is far harder than studying, and if your mind remains closed you will continue to deny the evidence no matter how much you study. It takes a kind of mental courage to discover facts which are at odds with your existing beliefs and then accept that the facts are facts and so discard the belief.

English
There's proof that nobody is born gay, I don't believe it to be something they can't help. There's nothing but inconclusive assumptions and suppositions when attemption to prove it, as even gay scientists end up in frustration with their inability to prove it's an inborn trait. Animals lick their bottoms after they poop, and this can be seen in many species, can you help yourself NOT to do the same? That's the point, we don't do everything animals do, we choose to do as we will. Using "nature" as an excuse is, honestly, pretty denigrating and regressive to the human race. Last time I checked, I don't see cows driving cars or mosquitoes pooping in the toilet. If you want to be like an animal, then you should get off of your computer right now and go live in the forest. Then you'll be one with nature. Tell me, why do we call pedophiles perverts and not gays? What is the difference between their preferences?
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