View Single Post
Old 11-22-2012, 22:10   #108
Tazz10m
Mod Aerator
 
Tazz10m's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: On the beach with girls in bikinis
Posts: 6,278
Note: This post is a series of posts from another thread in Mas Ayoob's forum here on GT, but it's being brought forward to this thread "Overpeneration" in "The 10 Ring" forum to be continued as it better belongs here than where it was originally.

***************


Old 11-20-2012, 13:45 #1
Billy10mm
Senior Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Hartsdale, NY
Posts: 994

For Mas: Overpenetration
Mas,

I'm sure you've seen it; the "I don't carry a (insert powerful handgun cartridge here) because I don't want to kill my neighbor after my bullet passes through the person I'm shooting at." argument.

Can you cite any cases where a relatively common automatic handgun round (let's say anything from .38spc to .45 super/10mm) passed through the center of mass (body for all intents and purposes) of its intended target (in this case a human being) and still carried enough energy to kill an innocent bystander? While I'm certain there are cases where bullets either grazed or passed through relatively thin areas (arm, neck, calf, etc) of tissue and went on to do very bad things, I'm having a hard believing and certainly FINDING any cases where a real COM shot came out the other side and went on to hurt someone. If you can cite a case, do you happen to know how often something like this happens or has happened?

My argument is that handgun bullets are relatively poor man-stoppers and that a bullet passing through someone COM is giving up a great deal of energy doing so - enough that I cannot believe that bullet would then travel an unknown distance and critically wound another individual. The Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness paper from the FBI supports this position (http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf)
__________________
Billy
G23
Fusion Tact-5 in 10mm


****************


Old 11-20-2012, 13:53 #2
Mas Ayoob
KoolAidAntidote

Mas Ayoob's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,016

Billy, the problem with over-penetration isn't so much the relative power of the handgun cartridge, but the bullet configuration. The New York Times reported the significant number of innocents (including brother officers) who had been shot with 115 grain FMJ 9mm bullets that went through and through the bad guys before they hit the good guys. It was this that finally led NYPD to switch from ball ammo to Gold Dot hollow points 13 or 14 years ago. It's one of the main reasons virtually every police department now issues expanding bullet ammunition.

A search under this topic in GT should provide you with more detailed information.

Best,
Mas


********************


Old Yesterday, 13:08 #3
Tazz10m
Mod Aerator

Tazz10m's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: On the beach with girls in bikinis
Posts: 5,696

Here is a pretty good discussion on the subject that pretty much covers all the bases:

Overpenetration?

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=292509
__________________
Find out what all the fuzz is about... seriously... get AGrip!

Brooks W. Speier
www.BrooksTactical.com Official AGrip™Website
Manufacturer of AGrip™



When it gets to the point where psychotic power freaks disguised as religious leaders falsely claim Gods will and warp weak little minds in mass and send them on suicide missions to blow up, maim, mutilate, and kill, thousands of innocent men, women, and children, in an effort to take over the world; it is time to put aside diplomacy and wishful thinking and eliminate those threatening until the threat no longer exists.


*******************


Old Yesterday, 14:49 #4
Mas Ayoob
KoolAidAntidote

Mas Ayoob's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,016

Welcome, Tazz.

Anything from darkness to tunnel vision to sheetrock behind the perp to the perp's own body can block the shooter's view of an innocent bystander in the background. It's something we can't ignore. If the bystander is hit by a bullet the shooter knew or should have known was likely to overpenetrate, well, look up the definition of "deliberate indifference."

Many pooh-pooh the problem by saying misses are more likely. The miss and the over-penetrating bullet are apples and oranges. The stress and other difficulties of the shooter legitimately returning fire against a criminal are not hard to substantiate in court, and are likely to be found to be excusable if the miss strikes a bystander. A bullet the shooter knew beforehand was likely to exit and strike anyone behind his only predictable backstop, the body of the offender? Not so much.

best,
Mas


******************


Old Yesterday, 16:59 #5
Tazz10m
Mod Aerator

Tazz10m's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: On the beach with girls in bikinis
Posts: 5,696

Hi Mas, nice to chat with you again. Last time was at the SHOT Show back in '96 at the Haarts booth.

I hear what you're saying, which is why i'm so into proper bullet/load selection, etc. There is a bit of a dilemma that each of us that aims to defend ourselves inevitably has to deal with and that is the fact that we never really know everything we are going to be up against in a personal defense situation, and so it so important to try to research and pick what might be best for the widest variety of situation/target/barrier combinations we might encounter. We never know what kind of clothing an attacker might wear, or if the attacker is going to be using cover to attack from, (like a car), or how massive and solid and "big boned" an attacker might be. Where i live, in any given day, at any moment, the attacker could be a big huge human, or a good sized black bear... or a little "pip squeak"... There is no time to "switch loads" for one or the other.

If someone attacks you with a gun from the cover of a car and has you pinned down it's best to have a weapon/load combo capable of at least having a chance of punching through the car and still having enough "damaging potential" to hit the guy and stop him. One never knows how much bone or whatever might hinder that process.

So, my school of thought is to have the most powerful and versatile weapon that is still practical for "everyday" use. For me, right now, that's a Glock 29 with a 20 round mag filled with 200gr Black Talons. I figure i'm lucky if i get 900 fps out of the combo. Personally, i'd rather have them kicking out at 1200 fps, but that's another story. Fact is i like the bullet design (a heavy bullet with hard "knuckles" on the leading edge to potentially break bone and "punch through" followed by the razor sharp "talons" if i get lucky on the expansion, and enough left over "umph" to hopefully nail and damage the spine) and it's proven to work pretty well in the wide variety of testing i've done.

At any rate... the idea is to be able to punch through whatever is in the way and get to the so-called "vitals" and do as much incapacitating damage to the attacker(s) as possible in order to "shut him/her/them down" and "stop" the attack as quickly and efficiently as possible.

An FMJ or "ball round" in a handgun is absolutely out of the question as it's highly likely to just "zip through", do minimal damage to vitals, and keep going with plenty of left over velocity into who-knows-what or whom that is not the intended target, the attacker. It's just irresponsible from the start, in my thinking.

With a properly designed hollow point bullet and velocity, the bullet is most likely going to flatten out or otherwise change shape significantly after hitting. This means that if it does penetrate beyond the intended attacker, it is likely already lost almost all of its velocity and that combined with the flattened front end or tumbling, etc., is not likely to do any real significant damage to whatever it might hit. In other words, it has lost pretty much all of it's "damage-ability"... and so, not likely to really cause much harm, if any, to "innocents"... and any damage it might cause could more than likely be "fixed up" by a good doctor.

So, "overpenetration that causes damage to an innocent" is really, more or less, in the same category of a "well intentioned miss", except the miss has the potential to do a whole lot more damage to an innocent.

A good example is in a crowded theater or shopping mall situation. You can't "miss", BUT, you HAVE to do SOMETHING... and one has to be instantly ready to properly and accurately act if "talking the attacker down" doesn't work. And, frankly, based on experience, sometimes the "talking step", should just be completely skipped.

At a certain point, over-thinking a dire emergency situation is potentially going to get WAY more innocent people killed than a well intentioned miss... and so "you just got to shoot 'em".

Sorry for the long post.
__________________
Find out what all the fuzz is about... seriously... get AGrip!

Brooks W. Speier
www.BrooksTactical.com Official AGrip™Website
Manufacturer of AGrip™



When it gets to the point where psychotic power freaks disguised as religious leaders falsely claim Gods will and warp weak little minds in mass and send them on suicide missions to blow up, maim, mutilate, and kill, thousands of innocent men, women, and children, in an effort to take over the world; it is time to put aside diplomacy and wishful thinking and eliminate those threatening until the threat no longer exists.


******************


Old Yesterday, 17:14 #6
Mas Ayoob
KoolAidAntidote

Mas Ayoob's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,016

Since '96? Damn, Brook, we're both old.

I think we both agree that FMJ is a very poor choice for self-defense today, and that having chosen a bullet designed to stay in the body of the offender would be a viable defense to an accusation of deliberate indifference in our use/choice of certain ammunition.

I think we would also agree that "over-thinking" in a split-second crisis could lead to fatal hesitation, which is why we need to spend the time beforehand to think these things out.

I gotta ask: what 20-round Glock 10mm magazine are you using in your G29, and how do you conceal it?


*******************


Old Yesterday, 23:05 #7
Tazz10m
Mod Aerator

Tazz10m's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: On the beach with girls in bikinis
Posts: 5,696

Yeah we're old.... and feeling it, too! I was fairly young, then! Hahaha... let's see how good your memory is... Do you remember me bowing down to you and saying; "Oh, Mas... Oh, Mas... You're The Man... I read everything you write..." when we first met? Hahaha....

Yes, i agree that an FMJ or any "hard solid non-expanding bullet" is a very poor choice for self-defense out of a handgun today, BUT, based on my experience and so-called understanding of anatomy, fighting for life, weapon design/construction, law and litigation, etc., i don't really buy in to the "choose a bullet designed to stay in the body of the offender" school of thought, despite the reality that "it would be a viable defense to an accusation of deliberate indifference in our use/choice of certain ammunition".

Mas, it's a myth. It's a bullet designed by a committee of lawyers... not by those who really want to "save the children". It's a bullet designed to be "found"... not a bullet designed to have "effective stopping potential". ("Stopping power" is also a myth... as is "energy dump"... a terrible use of words... i don't want to dump the energy, i want to "use" it... effectively.) I do a bit of bullet/load design. There is so much too it that i don't know how to write up an explanation of the hows and whys of this specific subject without writing a book on it. There are just that many variables. A bullet/load to "stop inside" and still do the kind damage that needs to be done is really not likely to get the job done that needs to be done. It may work fine in the average situation, or the "typical situation", but, there are so many "specific situations" that that bullet is not necessarily going to work for the situation you or i need it to.

I've studied the hell out of this subject and discussed it at length with Rex Applegate and "experienced others heavy into the subject", and we all agree that bullets, arrows, and knives, that do not penetrate all the way through and cause massive blood pressure drop do not work as well as those that do. Bullets that are designed to "dump energy" may cause a significant amount of localized damage, but, they rely heavily on shot placement... and in most "personal defense" situations, "shot placement" while "golden" is still a huge luxury. And we that defend and protect the innocent are just going to have to get or become better lawyers. "Talons" got trashed by lawyers, but one of the great things about the design is that because of the "talons" they tend to get caught in the clothing on the way out and not continue on. So, we get two holes that are better than one, and a bullet that is likely to be caught before it goes too far.

As for my G29 and G20, i use the G20 mags and put a Grahams Engineering +4 mag extension on, then put one up the pipe for a total of 20. The Grahams has been modified to have all "corners and edges" rounded so that they don't nail the "funny bone" in my elbow or other wise hurt me or stick out. On my G29 i also use a A&G Grip Extender on a G20 mag. As far as concealability, i can easily conceal either gun in a bathing suit and t-shirt and have done so for about 20+ years... although it's probably best i don't say how here in a public forum. (Call me, i'll tell you.) But, over the years i've gotten frustrated with others holster designs shortcomings, so i designed and made one that works fantastic, and now am seriously considering putting them out on the market.

Here is my G29... sorry, i can't show the holster... yet...
The 10 Ring
__________________
Find out what all the fuzz is about... seriously... get AGrip!

Brooks W. Speier
www.BrooksTactical.com Official AGrip™Website
Manufacturer of AGrip™



When it gets to the point where psychotic power freaks disguised as religious leaders falsely claim Gods will and warp weak little minds in mass and send them on suicide missions to blow up, maim, mutilate, and kill, thousands of innocent men, women, and children, in an effort to take over the world; it is time to put aside diplomacy and wishful thinking and eliminate those threatening until the threat no longer exists.



**********************



Old Yesterday, 23:27 #8
Mas Ayoob
KoolAidAntidote

Mas Ayoob's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,016

Brooks, I'll certainly look forward to seeing the holster that hides that gun and that magazine in a bathing suit.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on over-penetration. It isn't just about "killing power" or the term you hate (in use before either of us were born), "stopping power." Defensive firearm employment is, in the bigger picture, about protecting the innocent from harm. A bullet designed to shoot completely through the only backstop the good guys are likely to have -- the body of the bad guy -- endangers innocent bystanders we'll be predictably unable to see.

Those bystanders are likely to be family members in an armed citizen/off duty cop situation, and brother officers in an on-duty shooting situation.

Wishing you a happy and safe Thanksgiving,
Mas


***********************


Old Today, 12:39 #9
Tazz10m
Mod Aerator

Tazz10m's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: On the beach with girls in bikinis
Posts: 5,696

"Killing power" and "hate", your words, not mine. And, yes, a bullet that is designed to shoot completely through might still have the potential to harm others after passing through... might... but that doesn't mean it was designed or intended to have that much potential to harm. Likewise, a bullet designed to not pass through might still have the potential to pass all the way through and harm innocents. It all depends on what that bullet encounters along the way. If the area hit on the body is thin enough, it will pass through and continue on. How much potential to harm is anybodies guess. And if it does, it falls into the category of "mistake" or "miss". We are human. We are going to make mistakes. We, as humans, need to learn how to allow for our "allowable mistakes"... and, of course, learn from them. If we don't, we will freeze when we need to move, and we will not stop or otherwise properly handle the real problems, and we will not learn... we will cease to grow... and we will fade away. Such is the nature of over-thinking. Sometimes a person just has to make due with what they've got. A good person always does the best they can. As a designer/inventor/manufacturer i try to come up with the "magic bullet". Others do to. I'm not saying it's impossible, i'm saying that as yet it doesn't exist.

Mas, once upon a time i was in a gun fight. I was very nicely asking a guy if he needed help. He shot at me. I made the decision to shoot back because i believed i HAD to, and i could. But the guy was in a car and using it for cover. I HAD to point shoot out the window of my car, over my shoulder backwards, and try to punch diagonally through the side of the guys car, through the back of his seat, and into him, to potentially stop him from his attacking me and the girl i was with. On the other side of his car were "innocents" that could not be seen. This was about a week after the LA Riots. I was "trained", had studied a BUNCH of the writing of a guy named "Mas Ayoob" (among others), and was quite good at point shooting, (although, i had never practiced shooting over my shoulder). My choice of weapon was a Glock 20 and the ammo was Winchester Silver Tip in 10mm. (WAY too much muzzle flash, i soon found out, btw.)

Now, what choice of weapon and ammo would you have chosen and why, and what would you have done? Bear in mind that it is around 1991, you are not a LEO, and the Los Angeles County laws said you are not allowed to carry a loaded weapon in your car... oh, and there have been wide spread full on riots going on with lots of people getting killed for over a week... and you just came out of the "hills" after a night hike, you just got into your car, and now you are pinned down and being fired upon. And, remember, you have to make your choice of weapon/ammo at least a month before having knowledge of the exact situation that you now find yourself in.

Happy Thanksgiving, bro!
__________________
Find out what all the fuzz is about... seriously... get AGrip!

Brooks W. Speier
www.BrooksTactical.com Official AGrip™Website
Manufacturer of AGrip™



When it gets to the point where psychotic power freaks disguised as religious leaders falsely claim Gods will and warp weak little minds in mass and send them on suicide missions to blow up, maim, mutilate, and kill, thousands of innocent men, women, and children, in an effort to take over the world; it is time to put aside diplomacy and wishful thinking and eliminate those threatening until the threat no longer exists.


******************


Old Today, 15:23 #10
Mas Ayoob
KoolAidAntidote

Mas Ayoob's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,016

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tazz10m

""Killing power" and "hate", your words, not mine. And, yes, a bullet that is designed to shoot completely through might still have the potential to harm others after passing through... might... but that doesn't mean it was designed or intended to have that much potential to harm. Likewise, a bullet designed to not pass through might still have the potential to pass all the way through and harm innocents. It all depends on what that bullet encounters along the way. If the area hit on the body is thin enough, it will pass through and continue on. How much potential to harm is anybodies guess. And if it does, it falls into the category of "mistake" or "miss". We are human. We are going to make mistakes. We, as humans, need to learn how to allow for our "allowable mistakes"... and, of course, learn from them. If we don't, we will freeze when we need to move, and we will not stop or otherwise properly handle the real problems, and we will not learn... we will cease to grow... and we will fade away. Such is the nature of over-thinking. Sometimes a person just has to make due with what they've got. A good person always does the best they can. As a designer/inventor/manufacturer i try to come up with the "magic bullet". Others do to. I'm not saying it's impossible, i'm saying that as yet it doesn't exist.

Mas, once upon a time i was in a gun fight. I was very nicely asking a guy if he needed help. He shot at me. I made the decision to shoot back because i believed i HAD to, and i could. But the guy was in a car and using it for cover. I HAD to point shoot out the window of my car, over my shoulder backwards, and try to punch diagonally through the side of the guys car, through the back of his seat, and into him, to potentially stop him from his attacking me and the girl i was with. On the other side of his car were "innocents" that could not be seen. This was about a week after the LA Riots. I was "trained", had studied a BUNCH of the writing of a guy named "Mas Ayoob" (among others), and was quite good at point shooting, (although, i had never practiced shooting over my shoulder). My choice of weapon was a Glock 20 and the ammo was Winchester Silver Tip in 10mm. (WAY too much muzzle flash, i soon found out, btw.)

Now, what choice of weapon and ammo would you have chosen and why, and what would you have done? Bear in mind that it is around 1991, you are not a LEO, and the Los Angeles County laws said you are not allowed to carry a loaded weapon in your car... oh, and there have been wide spread full on riots going on with lots of people getting killed for over a week... and you just came out of the "hills" after a night hike, you just got into your car, and now you are pinned down and being fired upon. And, remember, you have to make your choice of weapon/ammo at least a month before having knowledge of the exact situation that you now find yourself in.

Happy Thanksgiving, bro!"


You covered a good bit of waterfront there, Brooks. Responding more or less in order to your points:

Certainly any bullet, if it was just a peripheral hit or if it passed through lung and intercostal spaces on an anorexic junkie, could exit. However, no responsible manufacturer lists "shooting all the way through the bad" guy as a design parameter, since for reasons I've already described, that would be irresponsible.

However, it's obvious that since over-penetration is a well-known side effect of using certain ammunition, it could certainly be construed that use of that ammunition constituted deliberate indifference.

Since you yourself admit that the opponent could be a flyweight or a heavyweight, it seems impossible to design a bullet/load that will "always" exit, but without power to cause the corollary death of a bystander. Using a load that meets FBI/general modern law enforcement standards seems to show good care and due diligence.

Good luck with that "magic bullet" you've been looking for. Don't feel bad; none of the rest of us have found it either.

I don't address hypotheticals like the one you bring up, here, partly because they tend to infinite "what ifs" and partly because, frankly, my work keeps me busy enough analyzing real gunfights. However, since auto body/window glass penetration is one of the parameters of the FBI protocols, I remain comfortable carrying defensive ammunition which fits that profile.

Brooks, you may recall when our host Eric opened the GATE section, clearly outlining its purpose and parameters in its opening post, here: http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show....php?t=1189556
You know that the GATE section is geared to giving the original poster a quick answer, since the whole rest of Glock Talk is open to multiple-poster debate. You posted "good idea" when Eric explained that in the post linked immediately above. (Post #29 on 9-13-10.)

You and I have violated that rule with the above dialogue, so I'm going to close the thread here. We've both explained our positions and disagreements, and it's starting to go 'round and 'round, the exact sort of thing GATE was intended to prevent. However, if you feel it needs more discussion than it has already had here and elsewhere in Glock Talk over the years, you're more than welcome to open a new thread in Carry Issues or Caliber Corner. PM me when and if you do, and I'll be happy to participate.

Cordially,
Mas
__________________
Celebrating 20 Years of helping good people get AGripô!

Find out what all the fuzz is about... seriously... get AGrip!

Brooks W. Speier

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
Official AGripô Manufacturer Website

AGripô Installation Video

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.



Never let anyone who is clueless about defense tell you what you can and can't do to protect yourself and others.

Μολὼν λαβέ!

Last edited by Tazz10m; 11-22-2012 at 22:12..
Tazz10m is offline   Reply With Quote