Originally Posted by 4949shooter
Tazz, I don't see the point in all this. There are two philosophies out there, the "penetration" guys and the "energy dump" guys. I've been around long enough to know that we will never get both sides to agree.
I think you are asking for a bullet that will do the job of penetrating / killing a large animal, like a bear, with a bullet that will "stop" a human attacker. We don't have bullets that will do both satisfactorily 100% of the time. Such is my dilemma, for when I carry my G20 in "bear country" when I am hunting predators at night, I would like to have a bullet capable of penetration, hopefully through bone. Then, when I stop for a snack on my way home at the all night mini-mart/gas station (stop & rob), I would want that same bullet to not overpenetrate on a human torso in the event the store is robbed late at night and there are innocents in the store. I understand what you are asking for completely, but I think the best bullet would be a "jack of all trades and master of none." I can load heavy for hunting and light for SD, but unfortunately I can't load for both.
I like the idea that there are now bullets that will penetrate vehicle windshields and still expand nicely in human tissue.
I apologize for "butting in." I know your post was intended for Mas, but I feel partly responsible because this was brought up in my thread regarding your 200 grain Talon loads.
Take care and have a good day.
4949shooter, you are not "butting in" at all. I welcome your input... and, hey, it's good. You "get it".
I keep repeating the same principles over and over not just to teach them, but, to use them to help bring us back and keep us all focused on "reality". Reality ALWAYS takes precedence. Some conversations about topics/issues are going to go back and forth and back and forth and NEED to in order to boil them down to a tangible, useful, product. It doesn't matter if it is "policy" or a product that is going to be manufactured and put on the market. Some are "no-brainers", and some are a pain in the backside, but, none-the-less, NEED to be put out because of societal demand. In business it's called "customer demand". It's the same process that helped create this great country and the Constitution and Bill of Rights... and our laws... and how they are enforced... and the physical products we use to help enforce them, and how those products are considered and used.... which, brings us to where we are now. The principles are well established in reality and they apply across the board. "Values" are also important, but, are much more subjective. And those that truly understand them actually don't argue about them. It's pretty amazing, i think.
I don't think it's impossible to boil this subject of bullet/load design. I think it's quit possible. And i think it not only should be done, but needs to be done. Mas is one of the foremost experts on this subject and, reality being what it is, we don't know how much longer we are going to have Mas around to help us with this. Right, Mas?
Rex Applegate is gone. But much of his knowledge lives on... in the form of the contents of his books and videos, and that which people like me who are still alive have in our memories what we gained from our extensive discussion on this topic with him. He has had such an influence on me and the design of my products that i feel like i should put his signature on many of them... but, of course, i don't... for a bunch of reasons. But that's another topic.
On the topic of bullet/load, we don't have to "get both sides to agree". What we do have is a fiduciary responsibility to be as correct as possible. And if we don't make every effort to be as correct as possible, guess what? We can be accused of that dreaded "deliberate indifference".
We also have a fiduciary responsibility to come home to our families and provide for them. If don't, who will... the government? Lawyers? Politicians? Megalomaniacs?
I almost died about a year ago. We are talking about as close as it gets. I've almost died several times. When it happens your life does "flash before you" in one form or another. And after, you really start thinking about life. It's pretty amazing to say the least. One thing that really got to me was that i realized that there was so much that i actually know about that i keep my mouth shut about that i should actually speak about before i'm gone. One of the main reasons i kept my mouth shut about them was because they were "uncomfortable" for most people to deal with.
Now, after almost dying...again, my attitude is a bit different. I'm going to speak out. I'm going to tell it like it is. And if people don't like it, toooo bad. Those that should tough it out, do their homework, take a stand, and speak out, but don't, and instead wuss out, shrink back, and shut up; deserve Darwin Awards.
I have a friend right now, who is sitting paralyzed in a wheelchair, crapping in a colostomy bag, stuck, because, for whatever reason, he chose to try to "talk" to a guy in the Tacoma Mall who was shooting people up with an AK, instead of taking cover and shooting him like he could have, and should have. I also had at least 3 other family members in that mall at that exact time, and some other friends... aside from my friends who are cops that responded to the shooting. Why did my friend try to talk to the guy first? Because his head was full of a bunch of crap. He was trying to be "too careful"... he should have been "more careful", did the best he could to avoid innocents, and just shot the guy and dropped him.
How does that saying go; I'd rather be convicted by 12, than carried by 6? Yup. Maybe we should add; "...or stuck in a wheel chair crapping in a bag."
If you are dead, you can not take care of your wife and kids... and you can't pass on to the living what you learned from making mistakes and dying.
A bullet that is designed with "talons" or "claws" tends to lose pretty much all of its velocity after it passes through the last layer of skin/hide.
Bullets that "cut" tend to do better at stopping an attacker than bullets that merely mushroom/expand and "push/smash/mash".
Velocity is generally needed to make a bullet expand and perform as needed.
So, the real question is: What is the velocity and damage potential of a given bullet/load that has exited? And; What actual injuries from exited bullets/loads are there and what are those bullets/loads?
It's the process of elimination. (Sorry, no pun intended.) And it's the reason we don't use FMJ's, Ball Rounds, etc., despite the fact our military does. It's also the reason we keep coming up with new calibers like 10mm, .40 S&W, .357 Sig, 5.7 x 28, etc. It's also the reason i'm involved with the deveopment of a laser gun that works like a Tazer but can drop someone from about 400 yards away and doesn't have the wires. The power setting is also adjustable. How cool is that? Set your Phasers to "stun".