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Old 01-15-2010, 00:33   #1
glock20c10mm
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357SIG proving to be an unbelievable manstopper???

Is there anyone around here with the intel behind the 357SIGs growing popularity with LE and the cumulative reasons why?

More/Less, it really is simply a fast 9 with inherently near perfect functioning characteristics in pistols. It has it's own line of 125gr bullets from most bullet manufacturers to handle the added velocity.

Yet it produces a little more recoil than 9mm and LE are still opting for it. Then again it doesn't recoil anymore than 40 (differently yes, more no). I suppose muzzle flash at night isn't much of an issue anymore with the low flash powders availble today.

But still, why is LE popularity still growing with the 357SIG? Are they seeing a difference in physical wounding characteristics? We do in animals, so I suppose we do in humans too.

Is it proving to stop fights faster? What's giving this little round so much clout? Anybody know anything definitive?

In Arizona you can get virtually as much of it as you want at just about any Walmart when everything else is sold out. Though most of the Walmarts are still limiting us to 6 boxes per day.


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Old 01-15-2010, 00:38   #2
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I had .357 magnums and .45 ACPs before I got a .357 SIG. The .357 SIG quickly became my carry piece. Now I've got .38 specials and .40 S&W's.
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Old 01-15-2010, 08:58   #3
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I would say it is certainly a good man stopper, as long as the bullet goes where it's supposed to. But looking at it that way, so is the 9mm, 40 and 45. Otherwise, I don't think it's stands above anything else available.
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Old 10-05-2012, 02:56   #4
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Originally Posted by SDGlock23 View Post
I would say it is certainly a good man stopper, as long as the bullet goes where it's supposed to. But looking at it that way, so is the 9mm, 40 and 45. Otherwise, I don't think it's stands above anything else available.
This. As far as I'm concerned, it's no .357 Mag and it's a over glorified 9mm +P+ than anything else. There is nothing the .357 Sig can do that the .357 can't and in every case, do better.

I'll be staying with semi-auto's in which the first number in the caliber starts with a 4. The .357 Sig isn't a bad round but it isn't anything special either. All it does is cost more to shoot.

I put it this way, if hype alone could kill, this cartridge would be placed on the list with weapons of mass destruction and we wouldn't be able to own it as civilians.
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Old 10-05-2012, 12:44   #5
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This. As far as I'm concerned, it's no .357 Mag and it's a over glorified 9mm +P+ than anything else. There is nothing the .357 Sig can do that the .357 can't and in every case, do better.

I'll be staying with semi-auto's in which the first number in the caliber starts with a 4. The .357 Sig isn't a bad round but it isn't anything special either. All it does is cost more to shoot.

I put it this way, if hype alone could kill, this cartridge would be placed on the list with weapons of mass destruction and we wouldn't be able to own it as civilians.
Sorry NEOH212. I will have to disagree with you. We have carried the 357sig at work for about 15 years. Mostly with the gold dot and then hst. I can assure you that it is not just a "overglorified 9mm+p+. I have seen it shot into just about every object you can think of and many times thru every angle of a car. We've also had approx. 12 shootings with same. VERY IMPRESSIVE. And why I think it is the best self defenese handgun caliber on the planet.
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Old 10-06-2012, 10:47   #6
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Sorry NEOH212. I will have to disagree with you. We have carried the 357sig at work for about 15 years. Mostly with the gold dot and then hst. I can assure you that it is not just a "overglorified 9mm+p+. I have seen it shot into just about every object you can think of and many times thru every angle of a car. We've also had approx. 12 shootings with same. VERY IMPRESSIVE. And why I think it is the best self defenese handgun caliber on the planet.
I believe the 357 Sig HST bullet is the best round for this caliber and I wonder why it is one of the best kept secrets. It goes well over 1,400fps out of my 4.5" G32 and the damage done to the few varmints I have shot at relatively close range have been most impressive. More damage than a .220 Swift. I am not much for Jello testing, but if you compare tnoutdoors9 test video with the HST 357 Sig to the other handgun calibers test videos, I believe it expands faster, causes more damage with great penetration. I wish Federal would sell the bullet for handloading. The last I looked ATG had some for sale.
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Old 10-06-2012, 12:51   #7
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I believe the 357 Sig HST bullet is the best round for this caliber and I wonder why it is one of the best kept secrets. It goes well over 1,400fps out of my 4.5" G32 and the damage done to the few varmints I have shot at relatively close range have been most impressive. More damage than a .220 Swift. I am not much for Jello testing, but if you compare tnoutdoors9 test video with the HST 357 Sig to the other handgun calibers test videos, I believe it expands faster, causes more damage with great penetration. I wish Federal would sell the bullet for handloading. The last I looked ATG had some for sale.
1400 fps from a 4.5" is not special. The Gold Dot and Golden Saber should do about that. The HST may be a hair faster but not enough to make any practical difference.

All of the .357 Sig tests are producing amazing cavities, and in the case of the Gold Dot and Golden Saber, producing ideal penetration (16"ish).



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Old 10-06-2012, 20:09   #8
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I believe the 357 Sig HST bullet is the best round for this caliber and I wonder why it is one of the best kept secrets. It goes well over 1,400fps out of my 4.5" G32 and the damage done to the few varmints I have shot at relatively close range have been most impressive. More damage than a .220 Swift. I am not much for Jello testing, but if you compare tnoutdoors9 test video with the HST 357 Sig to the other handgun calibers test videos, I believe it expands faster, causes more damage with great penetration. I wish Federal would sell the bullet for handloading. The last I looked ATG had some for sale.
Pghjim, Ill have to agree 100% with you. We carried the gold dots for about 13 years and then switched to glocks. We then did a test comparing gold dot, ranger t, and hst. Shot them all thru many types of barriers. They all pretty much penetrated the same, except gold dot penetrated thru windshield glass SLIGHTLY better. Comparing expansion, the hst expanded the best thru all barriers and functioned flawless. Had a couple hang ups with gold dot and ranger t 's. We felt the hst was the best of the bunch and have been carrying the hst 's now for a couple years. It has worked very well in the street against both two and four legged creatures.

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Old 10-21-2012, 14:05   #9
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I would say it is certainly a good man stopper, as long as the bullet goes where it's supposed to. But looking at it that way, so is the 9mm, 40 and 45. Otherwise, I don't think it's stands above anything else available.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
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Old 01-15-2010, 09:17   #10
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Originally Posted by glock20c10mm View Post
Is there anyone around here with the intel behind the 357SIGs growing popularity with LE and the cumulative reasons why?

More/Less, it really is simply a fast 9 with inherently near perfect functioning characteristics in pistols. It has it's own line of 125gr bullets from most bullet manufacturers to handle the added velocity.

Yet it produces a little more recoil than 9mm and LE are still opting for it. Then again it doesn't recoil anymore than 40 (differently yes, more no). I suppose muzzle flash at night isn't much of an issue anymore with the low flash powders availble today.

But still, why is LE popularity still growing with the 357SIG? Are they seeing a difference in physical wounding characteristics? We do in animals, so I suppose we do in humans too.

Is it proving to stop fights faster? What's giving this little round so much clout? Anybody know anything definitive?

In Arizona you can get virtually as much of it as you want at just about any Walmart when everything else is sold out. Though most of the Walmarts are still limiting us to 6 boxes per day.


Craig
where do you see evidence of "growing popularity"?

not a rhetorical question, I'm genuinely curious.
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Old 01-15-2010, 09:22   #11
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Originally Posted by c5367 View Post
where do you see evidence of "growing popularity"?

not a rhetorical question, I'm genuinely curious.
X2 Genuinely Curious. I carry 357sig, so I do like the round and would like to hear of popularity among Law Enforcement.
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Old 01-15-2010, 09:43   #12
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Not sure on your original question(s), but I can't find ammo at Wally World for .357 Sig anywhere around here. They get in 9 and .40 in all the time.
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Old 01-16-2010, 18:41   #13
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Not sure on your original question(s), but I can't find ammo at Wally World for .357 Sig anywhere around here. They get in 9 and .40 in all the time.
My Walmart has 125 grain .357 SIG and Federal FMJ 180 grain .40 S&W (@$13.97/50) on the shelf right now. I bought their last 6 boxes of $15.97 Federal FMJ .45 ACP.

...and I also carry one of two German .357 SIG pistols when not carrying a .45ACP.
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Old 01-15-2010, 12:32   #14
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where do you see evidence of "growing popularity"?

not a rhetorical question, I'm genuinely curious.
Popularity is not "growing" disproportionately. OP phrasing was implying that. It remains a novelty round. Nothing has changed that IMO.

The .357sig is a good option. Nothing special about it beyond the criteria those that choose it base their subjective selection on. Others select something different because they use different criteria. Choosing between service calibers is ultimately subjective... and splitting hairs IMO.

The .357sig has feeding issue, too... just like any other Glock can: VIDEO: G32 Malfunctions Resolved? and Might have solved my G32's feeding problem and others... again, just like any Glock.

Bottom-line: Shoot what you use well. But, you have to also feel good about what you use. And, that "feeling" is always going to be subjective.
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Old 01-15-2010, 18:16   #15
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Popularity is not "growing" disproportionately. OP phrasing was implying that. It remains a novelty round. Nothing has changed that IMO.
I haven't had the time to do a good Internet search on the specific issue, but as anecdotal evidence we need look no further than Glock Talk.

When I joined in 2007 there were few .357sig owners posting comments, if I recall correctly. Since then the number of .357sig owners has greatly increased, with corresponding favorable opinions posted on various threads.

When I have time I will look into it, but I do believe I've recently read of the growing acceptance by LEO organizations of the .357sig and their adoption of this caliber as the issue pistol.
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Old 01-15-2010, 18:32   #16
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This thread reminds me that it's probably about time to ask a couple of the other manufacturers about their production/sales for the caliber in LE/Gov circles again.

I think the last time I asked someone from Glock, it was almost 4 years ago. At that time I was told that they were only making 1 gun chambered in .357SIG for every 2,500 other guns chambered in all of the other calibers (combined), and that the caliber wasn't nearly as popular among their LE customers as the .40, 9 & .45 models. I'd be a bit curious to hear if matters have changed since then. I suspect the only reason the person with whom I was discussing it even knew some numbers is because he said he had been curious about it himself and had taken the time to ask some people back at the company headquarters in an attempt to find out about it. He said the info wasn't really easily available, or at least being commonly discussed, making him originally think that the numbers weren't very large compared to all of the other models being sold.

When I asked someone from Sig a couple of years ago they claimed not to know any production numbers (understandable), but said the .40 was the biggest seller of the major calibers.

I thought it was a reflection of at least some slowly developing interest when S&W announced they were going to chamber the M&P pistol series in .357SIG, since it would seem they wouldn't bother if they didn't anticipate at least some sales potential.

I still think the largest potential market for the caliber probably remains the private owner/shooter.
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Old 01-15-2010, 10:07   #17
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Performance
Because of its relatively high velocity for a handgun round, the .357 SIG has a very flat trajectory, extending the effective range. However, it does not quite reach the performance of the .357 Magnum with bullets heavier than 125 grains (8.1 g). Offsetting this general slight disadvantage in performance is that semi-automatic pistols tend to carry considerably more ammunition than revolvers.
Like the 7.62x25mm Tokarev, the .357 SIG works well when shooting through barriers. There has been a documented case in Texas where a police officer's .45 round did not penetrate a tractor-trailer's shell, but a .357 SIG round from a backup officer's gun did, killing the suspect inside. The round's ability to penetrate barriers is the main reason for its adoption by law enforcement agencies. However, other documented police shootings have confirmed the round's ability to not overpenetrate the body, even though ballistic gelatin shows 16 inches (410 mm) of penetration through heavy clothing (125 grain Speer Gold Dot). The Virginia State Police have had several documented officer-related shootings involving the .357 SIG, and in every case, not only were the suspects stopped instantly with one shot (except one who was shot several times while attempting to murder an officer), the bullet either did not exit the suspect, or was stopped in the clothing upon exiting, proving that even at such high velocities, the round when used with adequate expanding hollowpoints will not over penetrate soft tissue. The same department has also reported that attacking dogs have been stopped dead in their tracks by a single shot, whereas the former subsonic 147 grain 9 mm duty rounds would require multiple shots to incapacitate the animals.<SUP id=cite_ref-12 class=reference>[13]</SUP> The energy available in the .357 SIG is sufficient for imparting hydrostatic shock with well designed bullets.<SUP id=cite_ref-arxiv.org_1-1 class=reference>[2]</SUP><SUP id=cite_ref-Sturtevant_B_1998_2-1 class=reference>[3]</SUP><SUP id=cite_ref-13 class=reference>[14]</SUP> Recent publication of human autopsy results has demonstrated brain hemorrhaging from fatal hits to the chest with 9mm bullets.<SUP id=cite_ref-Krasja.2C_J_2009_3-1 class=reference>[4]</SUP>
The reputation that the .357 SIG round had for losing its crimp (allowing for bullet setback) was partially true when the cartridge was new and ammunition manufacturers were just beginning to produce the round. These problems have since been corrected by major manufacturers. As a result, the round now exhibits nominal setback characteristics, similar to other cartridges.<SUP style="WHITE-SPACE: nowrap" class="noprint Template-Fact" title="This claim needs references to reliable sources from November 2007">[citation needed]</SUP>
The bottleneck shape of the .357 SIG cartridge makes feeding problems almost non-existent.<SUP style="WHITE-SPACE: nowrap" class="noprint Template-Fact" title="This claim needs references to reliable sources from February 2009">[citation needed]</SUP> This is because the bullet is channeled through the larger chamber before being seated entirely as the slide goes into full battery. Flat point bullets are seldom used with other autoloader platforms because of feeding problems; however, such bullets are commonly seen in the .357 SIG chambering and are quite reliable, as are hollow-point bullets.
One disadvantage of the .357 SIG is that it fires a .355" bullet at higher velocities than most bullets of that caliber are designed for. Very few bullets have been designed specifically for the .357 SIG, and .357 Magnum bullets that are designed for the same velocity range cannot be used due to their slightly larger diameter. Because of this, there are fewer ammunition choices in .357 SIG than one might expect for a cartridge using .355" bullets.
Another potential drawback of the .357 SIG is its somewhat harsh treatment of pistols that are not designed to handle its high pressure that coupled to its case head area yields a high bolt thrust<SUP id=cite_ref-14 class=reference>[15]</SUP> for a semi-automatic service handgun cartridge. Firing .357 SIG through modified pistols that were originally designed to fire the .40 S&W can accelerate wear.
The "Accurate Powder" reloading manuals claims that it is "without a doubt the most ballistically consistent handgun cartridge we have ever worked with."<SUP id=cite_ref-accurate_4-1 class=reference>[5]</SUP>
[edit] Implementation

<TABLE class="metadata plainlinks ambox ambox-content"><TBODY><TR><TD class=mbox-image>Caliber Corner
</TD><TD class=mbox-text>This section does not cite any references or sources.
<SMALL>Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (April 2008)</SMALL></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
The SIG-Sauer P229 in .357 SIG is currently one of the standard issue firearms carried by special agents and Uniformed Division officers of the United States Secret Service, the Bastrop County Texas Sheriff's Office, the North Carolina State Highway Patrol, Delaware State Police, Rhode Island State Police, Alameda County Sheriff's Office, Virginia State Police, Federal Air Marshals and the Treasury Inspector General for Tax Administration. The Pennsylvania Game Commission replaced the .357 Mag. with the .357 SIG. In most cases, it has replaced 10 mm, .40 S&W and 9 mm loads. In 1995, the Texas Department of Public Safety became the first government agency to implement the .357 SIG. The Tennessee Highway Patrol presently issues the Glock 31 pistol chambered in .357 SIG. The Bedford Heights Police Department (OH) currently issues the Glock 31/32 in .357 SIG. The Elloree Police Department in South Carolina Elloree Policealso issues the Glock 31, .357 SIG and the Madison Police Department in Madison, WV issues the Glock 32 in .357 SIG. The Lexington Police Department in North Carolina issues the Sig P229 DAK in .357 Sig.

Wikipedia is the source of this information, although I have read most of this before from more reputable sources. Much of the performance section is paraphrased from Masaad Ayoobs book
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Old 01-15-2010, 14:38   #18
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it really is simply a fast 9
Boy, how many times do we hear that. Isn't a 44 mag. just a faster 44 special? Isn't the 357 mag. just a faster 38 special? The velocity issues do matter. According to articles in Guns and American Handgunner it is increasing in popularity among LE, particularly the Higway Patrols. However, agencies and groups that would probably study this sort of thing because they have a good chance to use the gun seem to be growing also. No round is perfect but I think even comparing it to a +p+ 9 would be rediculous.
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Old 01-15-2010, 16:16   #19
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Boy, how many times do we hear that. Isn't a 44 mag. just a faster 44 special? Isn't the 357 mag. just a faster 38 special? The velocity issues do matter. According to articles in Guns and American Handgunner it is increasing in popularity among LE, particularly the Higway Patrols. However, agencies and groups that would probably study this sort of thing because they have a good chance to use the gun seem to be growing also. No round is perfect but I think even comparing it to a +p+ 9 would be rediculous.


But really, a Corvette is simply a fast Chevett, right?
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Old 01-26-2010, 22:55   #20
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But really, a Corvette is simply a fast Chevett, right?
Not really....have you seen a chevett trying to turn or brake from 160 mph ?

LOL...no but really I see your point.
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