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Old 01-01-2011, 11:07   #1
Restless28
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Battle Rifle? Do You Really Need One?

The MBR, or battle rifle topic is all over the web. From what I read, most folks say that a MBR has to be a .308. I'm assuming the MBR is supposed to be a SHTF gun.

Why would you need a MBR if you're readily equipped with an AR15 or AK47 if SHTF? Aren't this both more than capable if you had to fight?
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Old 01-01-2011, 11:12   #2
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Those should be fine. Well, they should be if you are not overly paranoid. Who would want to be shot with either.
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Old 01-01-2011, 11:16   #3
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Best to have it, than NEED it at a bad time.

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Old 01-01-2011, 11:18   #4
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I am very comfortable with a quality M4.
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Old 01-01-2011, 11:27   #5
.45Super-Man
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I think the MBR comes into its own if you're talking about one rifle to do everything. The ability to hunt or take out a threat at 500+yds is where the MBR has an advantage over the AK or AR.
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Old 01-11-2011, 01:59   #6
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Originally Posted by .45Super-Man View Post
I think the MBR comes into its own if you're talking about one rifle to do everything. The ability to hunt or take out a threat at 500+yds is where the MBR has an advantage over the AK or AR.
thats not a mbr, thats a sniper rifle.....anything in war at 500 yards and further is usually handled by snipers or 50's
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Old 01-01-2011, 11:32   #7
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I wouldn't say you necessarily need a MBR, but they're awesome and I just like having one. They do have a couple of advantages, like more power if you need it and longer range.

My primary SHTF rifles would be my SKSs. They're probably enough to get me through any situation. But if I want something more, my MBR is my 8mm Egyptian Hakim. Some might say it's a bit much, but if an SKS isn't enough, I know there's always a bigger bat in the closet. Perhaps the thugs who want my generator in a SHTF situation have an AK. 25 rounds of 8mm in a light-recoiling semi-auto (fast follow up shots) might change their minds.

Here it is with a 10 round mag...

The SHOT ShowCase

And here's a 25 round mag...

The SHOT ShowCase

Here's a short video showing how the light recoil makes it easy to stay on target (no, it's not me in the video)...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rjobet41qmQ

But like I said, I'm still fine with my SKSs. Having a MBR is just another plus.
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Old 01-01-2011, 11:38   #8
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You gain range and penetration, both huge advantages. You lose quite a bit of mobility as most of them are significantly heavier than AKs/ARs. For anyone that has actually carried a "MBR" at the ready for longer than the walk from your tailgate to the firing line you know that the weight of a gun makes a HUGE difference.

I personally don't think that everyone NEEDS a "battle rifle" and the question doesn't fall far from 9MM vs 45 or AR vs AK--different strokes for different folks.
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Old 01-01-2011, 11:54   #9
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Originally Posted by doktarZues View Post
You gain range and penetration, both huge advantages. You lose quite a bit of mobility as most of them are significantly heavier than AKs/ARs. For anyone that has actually carried a "MBR" at the ready for longer than the walk from your tailgate to the firing line you know that the weight of a gun makes a HUGE difference.

I personally don't think that everyone NEEDS a "battle rifle" and the question doesn't fall far from 9MM vs 45 or AR vs AK--different strokes for different folks.

Realistically, how much range do you think you actually gain?

Since the 5.56 weapons are typically more accurate, and recoil less, as well as accept scopes better, I would challenge that while the 7.62 carries more energy, the 5.56 is probably going to be the more effective choice at most distances. Especially considering the general lack of accuracy I see from most shooters, I don't think the majority could employ a 7.62 rifle well enough to enjoy the slight ballistic advantage is brings to the table.


Secondly, what good is penetration really in terms of a SHTF rifle? I know people toss around how a 7.62 will go through a cinder block, and a 5.56 won't. But in all my years as a soldier, I've yet to see someone shoot through a wall to get to the guy on the other side. Typically, if you can't see them, you can't hit them. Plus most things that stop 5.56, will stop 7.62. The notable exception being some body armor that will stop 7.62 ball, will not stop some various flavors of 5.56.
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Old 01-01-2011, 12:05   #10
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Don't ARs win at Camp Perry all the time? They are shooting at targets 500yds away with irons aren't they? Are guys who pick a 7.62 x 51 chambered rifle imagining that they'll be shooting the guys with ARs from far enough away that the AR can't reach them? I think an AR or AK will serve the average internet comando just fine.
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Old 01-01-2011, 12:08   #11
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I like to cover my basis so I have rifle caliber carbines (.223, 7.62x39), pistol caliber carbines (9mm .30 Carbine), magazine fed battle rifles (.308 .303), and clip fed battle rifles (30-06). For the most part I own things because I like them and they are fun to shoot but if things went really bad I would use any of them.

I have a few people in my family that know how to run ARs so maybe they would get those and I would haul around my M1A SOCOM 16.
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Old 01-01-2011, 12:52   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post
Realistically, how much range do you think you actually gain?

Since the 5.56 weapons are typically more accurate, and recoil less, as well as accept scopes better, I would challenge that while the 7.62 carries more energy, the 5.56 is probably going to be the more effective choice at most distances. Especially considering the general lack of accuracy I see from most shooters, I don't think the majority could employ a 7.62 rifle well enough to enjoy the slight ballistic advantage is brings to the table.


Secondly, what good is penetration really in terms of a SHTF rifle? I know people toss around how a 7.62 will go through a cinder block, and a 5.56 won't. But in all my years as a soldier, I've yet to see someone shoot through a wall to get to the guy on the other side. Typically, if you can't see them, you can't hit them. Plus most things that stop 5.56, will stop 7.62. The notable exception being some body armor that will stop 7.62 ball, will not stop some various flavors of 5.56.
Realistically you gain a more effective round at all ranges. I totally agree that for the average shooter asking "do I need an MBR" the ballistic advantage will be minimal. For those that have trained and are limited primary by their equipment, they're gaining an additional couple of hundred effective yards.

I completely disagree with "what good is penetration". Glass, car doors, interior walls, fences, debris, etc., penetration is a HUGE factor in almost any battlefield scenario.
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Old 01-02-2011, 13:27   #13
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Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post
Realistically, how much range do you think you actually gain?
For the purposes of being effective, we can't really consider a univariate model. Univariate is a big word that means single variable/factor. You need to consider other issues such as wind, energy, drop, ballistic coefficient. I can go on but you obviously aren't able to consider more than one argument at a time.

I won't disagree that 500+ in SHTF for engagement seems excessive - but there are no rules, so set your own parameters.

Quote:
Since the 5.56 weapons are typically more accurate, and recoil less, as well as accept scopes better, I would challenge that while the 7.62 carries more energy, the 5.56 is probably going to be the more effective choice at most distances
.
- It is typically more accurate than most 'MBR" But as I said - accuracy is NOT everything at a certain point of distance. and past 500 is about it for 5.56
- recoil is really only relevant if lot's of follow up shots are important. Not a factor based on your own "accuracy" argument. Learn to shoot and recoil is able to be overcome.
- 5.56 accepts a scope better? Who TF told you this. You are an idiot or you can't think think straight. Did you mean to say an AR accepts a scope easier? You need to check out a DSA SA-58. ever see a PSOP go on a PSL? I guess not...Again - you obviously have NO idea what you are talking about. That is just wrong. Lay down some parameters or don't talk about things you don't understand.


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Especially considering the general lack of accuracy I see from most shooters,
Can't argue with that - finger on the trigger is USUALLY more important than the trigger itself. To a point...

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I don't think the majority could employ a 7.62 rifle well enough to enjoy the slight ballistic advantage is brings to the table.
- I think that is BS based on your own arguments. The first pull is the same regardless of the gun. I don't think most could use the AR as well. The bullets are too light (even the heavy ones) and the drop/drif too much - especially when combined with the lack of energy it deliveres once we are "out there". Far more shooters would do far better with a .308 at longer ranges.
- And your definition of slight ballistic advantage is really skewed. I suppose that's why SCARS are in use by Sepc Ops in 7.62? I suppose that's why Snipers are using 7.62? Again - you are using "weasel words" slight is TRIPLE the energy at 500 yds. That's like saying a Toyota Corolla has a slight speed advantage over an Indy car.

Quote:
I've yet to see someone shoot through a wall to get to the guy on the other side. Typically, if you can't see them, you can't hit them. Plus most things that stop 5.56, will stop 7.62.
- Again, a sound argument - if you can't see it don't shoot at it. If for no other reason it's a waste of ammo. But again, your ignorance is couched in a lot of mushy speech. There are a lot of car windows that 5.56 will deflect where at the same range a 7.62 will go right through it. same with car doors. Any redneck growing up near a junkyard can tell you that. But let's be clear: THERE aRE A LOT OF THINGS THAT WILL STOP 5.56 THAT WON'T STOP 7.62.


Quote:
The notable exception being some body armor that will stop 7.62 ball, will not stop some various flavors of 5.56.
The other notable exception being some plates that at the wrong distance WON'T stop 7.62 but will stop 5.56.

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But in all my years as a soldier,
And here is the issue I think. How old are you anyway? 25 I think. You have been a soldier for 7 years at most. I think you are just young and gung-ho and just really don't know any better.

There is a saying in Human resources: 20 years of experience doesn't equal a PhD. And a PhD doesn't equal 20 years of experience. And just because you haven't done the same exact job in the same exact doesn't mean you necessarily can't do this one. And just because you have done the same exact job doesn't mean your really know it.

Well guess what Sarge: I have been shooting Well longer than you have been ALIVE. And I have a PhD. So I have a hell of a lot of knowledge and experience compared you - while no military service. So the real question is does your ~ 7 years of whatever = my life. Based on what you say that I read here - not even close.When your mommy and daddy were humping to make you, I was helping pappy do custom reloads for competition on trap/target teams and hunting.

Just say it: All you know is the M4, and what they taught you in boot plus some combat (whatever that has been...which we don't know).

You will argue the superiority of the M4 into the ground because that's all you know. Hell - I bet you never shot a gun before the army.

I can't way to see your next expression of ignorance in this thread. So people really think you know something? I think you don't or you had better learn to type more precisely to express your thoughts.
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Old 01-02-2011, 19:53   #14
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Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post
Realistically, how much range do you think you actually gain?

Since the 5.56 weapons are typically more accurate, and recoil less, as well as accept scopes better, I would challenge that while the 7.62 carries more energy, the 5.56 is probably going to be the more effective choice at most distances. Especially considering the general lack of accuracy I see from most shooters, I don't think the majority could employ a 7.62 rifle well enough to enjoy the slight ballistic advantage is brings to the table.


Secondly, what good is penetration really in terms of a SHTF rifle? I know people toss around how a 7.62 will go through a cinder block, and a 5.56 won't. But in all my years as a soldier, I've yet to see someone shoot through a wall to get to the guy on the other side. Typically, if you can't see them, you can't hit them. Plus most things that stop 5.56, will stop 7.62. The notable exception being some body armor that will stop 7.62 ball, will not stop some various flavors of 5.56.
I'm so very confused as to how you make out that the M14 is LESS accurate than the M16...

And that's very nice of you to assume all civilian shooters without your apparent expertise in shooting can't handle a 7.62MM
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Old 01-01-2011, 12:12   #15
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Originally Posted by doktarZues View Post
You gain range and penetration, both huge advantages. You lose quite a bit of mobility as most of them are significantly heavier than AKs/ARs. For anyone that has actually carried a "MBR" at the ready for longer than the walk from your tailgate to the firing line you know that the weight of a gun makes a HUGE difference.

I personally don't think that everyone NEEDS a "battle rifle" and the question doesn't fall far from 9MM vs 45 or AR vs AK--different strokes for different folks.
I'll take that a step further. Anyone who has not humped 180 round of 7.62mm NATO around for a couple of days, step to the left side of the bus. Those who have humped 100+ rounds of 7.62mm NATO know what I am talking about, namely that a 20 round magazine of ammo weighs a lot more, is a lot larger, and is only appreciated when you actually want to shoot something. Ah, but then it is all worth while...
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Old 01-01-2011, 11:20   #16
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Originally Posted by Restless28 View Post
The MBR, or battle rifle topic is all over the web. From what I read, most folks say that a MBR has to be a .308. I'm assuming the MBR is supposed to be a SHTF gun.

Why would you need a MBR if you're readily equipped with an AR15 or AK47 if SHTF? Aren't this both more than capable if you had to fight?

I thought those were both MBRs (equivalents?), just not in .308win.
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Old 01-01-2011, 11:23   #17
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the term MBR, is mostly a term used by shooters to differentiate between 7.62 caliber rifles, and 5.56 "assault" rifles.


The full power rifles have their place, but they're usually heavy, less accurate, and more expensive than their smaller brethren.

If you have a quality AR/AK, than no, you don't "need" a MBR. They'll do everything a 7.62 caliber rifle will do.
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Old 01-02-2011, 10:27   #18
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Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post
the term MBR, is mostly a term used by shooters to differentiate between 7.62 caliber rifles, and 5.56 "assault" rifles.


The full power rifles have their place, but they're usually heavy, less accurate, and more expensive than their smaller brethren.

If you have a quality AR/AK, than no, you don't "need" a MBR. They'll do everything a 7.62 caliber rifle will do.

Last I checked my AK was a 7.62 caliber rifle....
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Old 01-02-2011, 11:42   #19
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Last I checked my AK was a 7.62 caliber rifle....

Yeah, 7.62x39mm, not 7.62x51mm. MBR is usually used to reference the full power rifle rounds.

Kinda like saying the V-6 mustang is a real mustang.
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Old 01-02-2011, 12:57   #20
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Yeah, 7.62x39mm, not 7.62x51mm. MBR is usually used to reference the full power rifle rounds.

Kinda like saying the V-6 mustang is a real mustang.
Agreed. By that measure, the 5.56 would be a Geo Metro.
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