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Old 08-24-2011, 12:37   #1
poodleshooter1
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What if they approach while you are holding them at gunpoint?

Let's say you had legal justification to shoot and drew, perhaps because they were approaching with a knife or bat in hand. When you drew your gun they dropped their weapon and stopped advancing. Now you're not able to shoot and are holding them at gunpoint (who would hoster at this point lol).

Let's say the start talking to you and are approaching slowly step by step. If you can, try to create distance and put an object between you and them, sure. But whether you can or can't create distance and place an object between you, do you have legal justification to shoot if they disobey commands to stop advancing, etc. or do you actually have to get to the point where they are two feet from you and able to snatch your gun, and actually trying to snatch your gun?

What are the elements of such a situation?
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Old 08-24-2011, 12:39   #2
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Say, Stop or I'll shoot. Then shoot.



The threat hasn't stopped.
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Old 08-24-2011, 13:00   #3
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Say, Stop or I'll shoot. Then shoot.



The threat hasn't stopped.
And perhaps go to prison, depending on the circumstances.
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Old 08-24-2011, 13:09   #4
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And perhaps go to prison, depending on the circumstances.
Some times it works that way.
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Old 08-24-2011, 13:12   #5
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Some times it works that way.
Better to be judged by 12....
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Old 08-27-2011, 00:44   #6
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Some times it works that way.
And mostly it shouldn't when it does.
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Old 08-27-2011, 21:06   #7
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Say, Stop or I'll shoot. Then shoot.



The threat hasn't stopped.
Amen!
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Old 11-25-2012, 14:54   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by janice6 View Post
Say, Stop or I'll shoot. Then shoot.



The threat hasn't stopped.
Basically this. The instant that, due to proximity and level of threat perceived you feel like your life and health are in danger you shoot. Actually, in Texas you are NOT required to warn the aggressor verbally. Your fear of death or grievous injury is your impetus to shoot.
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Old 08-24-2011, 12:46   #9
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My recommendation to you would be to refer to the Laws and Statutes in your state to see what threats by another party would allow a person holding a legit concealed carry permit to use deadly force if you are speaking about a threat outside your home or vehicle.

For me, I would need to feel that I, or my family was in immediate and unavoidable danger and or threat of bodily injury or death before I would discharge my weapon.
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Old 08-24-2011, 12:55   #10
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My recommendation to you would be to refer to the Laws and Statutes in your state to see what threats by another party would allow a person holding a legit concealed carry permit to use deadly force if you are speaking about a threat outside your home or vehicle.

For me, I would need to feel that I, or my family was in immediate and unavoidable danger and or threat of bodily injury or death before I would discharge my weapon.
Ayoob states that if attacked by multiple unarmed people, and you shoot two of them leaving one of them, you have the right to use lethal force because that person has proved an intent and capability to cause grave bodily injury or death. I'm paraphrasing but that's the jist of it.

In my state (WA), you are allowed to use deadly force to stop any felony committed upon your person. Robbery, kidnapping, or felony assault, etc.

So it stands to reason that if someone (one person)was armed with a knife and trying to assault me, that would be a felony, they have shown an intent to commit grave bodily inury or death. They are present and capable. If they drop it and eventually start advancing, it stands to reason they still intend to commit a felony upon me and are not walking up to shake my hand.

Last edited by poodleshooter1; 08-24-2011 at 12:56..
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Old 08-24-2011, 13:02   #11
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Originally Posted by poodleshooter1 View Post
Ayoob states that if attacked by multiple unarmed people, and you shoot two of them leaving one of them, you have the right to use lethal force because that person has proved an intent and capability to cause grave bodily injury or death. I'm paraphrasing but that's the jist of it.

In my state (WA), you are allowed to use deadly force to stop any felony committed upon your person. Robbery, kidnapping, or felony assault, etc.

So it stands to reason that if someone (one person)was armed with a knife and trying to assault me, that would be a felony, they have shown an intent to commit grave bodily inury or death. They are present and capable. If they drop it and eventually start advancing, it stands to reason they still intend to commit a felony upon me and are not walking up to shake my hand.
You are seriously simplifying Ayoobs statements, and I believe slighty mi-stating them.

Depending on the laws of your state, your last paragraph might or might not give justification.
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Old 08-24-2011, 14:38   #12
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You are seriously simplifying Ayoobs statements, and I believe slighty mi-stating them.

Depending on the laws of your state, your last paragraph might or might not give justification.
No, I'm not. He clearly stated in his book such a circumstance where multiple unarmed people attack, you shoot two of them, one is left standing. What do you do? His answer was pretty clear. Don't make me get the book out and type out what it says....
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Old 08-26-2011, 20:09   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by txinvestigator View Post
You are seriously simplifying Ayoobs statements, and I believe slighty mi-stating them.

Depending on the laws of your state, your last paragraph might or might not give justification.
Laws in our State are written so ambiguously that ANY attempt at self defense is a crap shoot. Fortunately, I can't think of one self defense shoot that's been prosecuted in years. (ending ia a conviction) Something to do with the victim being able to articulate that they were in fear of great bodily harm, and the fact that the law says "any reasonable person" would fear for their lives. (paraphrased)

The biggest key here is "reasonable person".

Last edited by Bogey; 08-26-2011 at 20:40..
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Old 08-24-2011, 12:50   #14
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Shoot
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Old 08-24-2011, 12:52   #15
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Huh? They dropped the knife after I shot them.
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Old 08-24-2011, 17:32   #16
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Huh? They dropped the knife after I shot them.
Yep knife fell when the 10mm bullet went through him,,,The End
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Old 08-24-2011, 17:36   #17
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Yep knife fell when the 10mm bullet went through him,,,The End
Maybe you should switch to a SD round that expands better rather than punching little 10mm holes in them.
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Old 11-19-2012, 17:49   #18
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Kentucky KRS 503.080

Hypothetical situation. Im a photographer walking in downtown louisville on the waterfront and im approached by one or two people and they want to steal my camera. They grab my camera and I struggle with them. I get punched or kicked and things start to escalate. Its dark. I don't know if they have a weapon on them or not. I pull a weapon a shot one or both them.

Under krs 503.080 part b is this a justifiable shooting!
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Old 11-19-2012, 19:03   #19
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Under krs 503.080 part b is this a justifiable shooting!
Maybe someone in KY can respond to the specifics of your question, but I think the take-a-way from all these are the "shoot-don't shoot" scenarios everyone can come up with.

During my CCW class the instructor taught how important it is for every CCW student to spend the time thinking of these scenarios, creating a response and then find what the law might say. This creates the best way for a CCW permit holder to have the best knowledge base to be a responsible permit holder and still protect themselves and their family.

You’ll spend thousands and thousands of hours carrying a handgun to maybe use for a few seconds to save your life or property, shouldn’t you spend a few hours on doing the research to make sure you make the right choice when you need the weapon?

Last edited by TMNKWD; 11-19-2012 at 19:04.. Reason: I'm a dope and forgot to add a paragraph
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Old 11-20-2012, 09:49   #20
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Hypothetical situation. Im a photographer walking in downtown louisville on the waterfront and im approached by one or two people and they want to steal my camera. They grab my camera and I struggle with them. I get punched or kicked and things start to escalate. Its dark. I don't know if they have a weapon on them or not. I pull a weapon a shot one or both them.

Under krs 503.080 part b is this a justifiable shooting!
No, but it is a justified shooting under KRS 503.050 (self-defense), because the crime is robbery in the second degree, which is a "felony involving the use of force."

Quote:
503.050 Use of physical force in self-protection --
(2) The use of deadly physical force by a defendant upon another person is justifiable under subsection (1) only when the defendant believes that such force is necessary to protect himself against death, serious physical injury, kidnapping, sexual intercourse compelled by force or threat, felony involving the use of force, or under those circumstances permitted pursuant to KRS 503.055.
To be justified under KRS 503.080, the robbery would have to be in your home.

This is a specific issue I address in law enforcement training, because it is legal to use deadly force, under state law, to stop things like a robbery 2nd and an assault 3rd (minor assault or a bus driver, school volunteer, police, etc.) but that would be a civil rights violation under federal law, if done by a government agent.
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Old 11-20-2012, 17:48   #21
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No, but it is a justified shooting under KRS 503.050 (self-defense), because the crime is robbery in the second degree, which is a "felony involving the use of force."



To be justified under KRS 503.080, the robbery would have to be in your home.

This is a specific issue I address in law enforcement training, because it is legal to use deadly force, under state law, to stop things like a robbery 2nd and an assault 3rd (minor assault or a bus driver, school volunteer, police, etc.) but that would be a civil rights violation under federal law, if done by a government agent.
Thanks for the reply.
Looks like the law has been changed slightly sight I got my CCW training. Exp
(felony involving the use of force, or under those circumstances permitted pursuant to KRS 503.055.)
Will continue to carry when photographing in that area. Assuming I don't get my car spray painted !
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Old 08-24-2011, 13:01   #22
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Around these parts the language is when "a person reasonably believes that he is in imminent danger of serious bodily harm or death." Once you feel that he has the time, proximity and capability and you fear seriously bodily harm or death, around here at least, you are within your legal right to shoot. But like has been said, I would check for precedence within your area.
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Old 08-24-2011, 13:24   #23
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Sounds like you've got a decision to make.

Several, actually, and the first one is whether or not you're going to train and study or just treat the pistol as magic.
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Old 08-24-2011, 13:33   #24
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Everyone who carries a firearm for SD should already have the answer to this question. If this happens and you don't have a game plan you are going to be in a world of pain and possibly death.

Their is a lot more to this than carrying a firearm. Do your homework now so if this situation happens on your worst day you will be prepared.

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Old 08-24-2011, 13:34   #25
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Let 'em get close and kick 'em in the nads....
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