GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.

 
  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-24-2011, 12:37   #1
poodleshooter1
Senior Member
 
poodleshooter1's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 2,110
What if they approach while you are holding them at gunpoint?

Let's say you had legal justification to shoot and drew, perhaps because they were approaching with a knife or bat in hand. When you drew your gun they dropped their weapon and stopped advancing. Now you're not able to shoot and are holding them at gunpoint (who would hoster at this point lol).

Let's say the start talking to you and are approaching slowly step by step. If you can, try to create distance and put an object between you and them, sure. But whether you can or can't create distance and place an object between you, do you have legal justification to shoot if they disobey commands to stop advancing, etc. or do you actually have to get to the point where they are two feet from you and able to snatch your gun, and actually trying to snatch your gun?

What are the elements of such a situation?
poodleshooter1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2011, 12:39   #2
janice6
Platinum Membership
NRA
 
janice6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: minnesota
Posts: 19,260


Say, Stop or I'll shoot. Then shoot.



The threat hasn't stopped.
__________________
janice6

"Peace is that brief, glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading". Anonymous

Earp: Not everyone who knows you hates you.
DOC: I know it ain't always easy bein' my friend....but I'll BE THERE when you need me.
janice6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2011, 13:00   #3
txinvestigator
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: DFW
Posts: 1,907
Quote:
Originally Posted by janice6 View Post
Say, Stop or I'll shoot. Then shoot.



The threat hasn't stopped.
And perhaps go to prison, depending on the circumstances.
__________________
CHL Instructor
txinvestigator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2011, 13:09   #4
janice6
Platinum Membership
NRA
 
janice6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: minnesota
Posts: 19,260


Quote:
Originally Posted by txinvestigator View Post
And perhaps go to prison, depending on the circumstances.
Some times it works that way.
__________________
janice6

"Peace is that brief, glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading". Anonymous

Earp: Not everyone who knows you hates you.
DOC: I know it ain't always easy bein' my friend....but I'll BE THERE when you need me.
janice6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2011, 13:12   #5
GlockinNJ
Senior Member
 
GlockinNJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: PRONJ
Posts: 2,710
Quote:
Originally Posted by janice6 View Post
Some times it works that way.
Better to be judged by 12....
GlockinNJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2011, 00:44   #6
OldCurlyWolf
Senior Member
 
OldCurlyWolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 747
Quote:
Originally Posted by janice6 View Post
Some times it works that way.
And mostly it shouldn't when it does.
__________________
I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do those things to other people and I require the same of them.

Politicians should serve two terms, one in office and one in prison.(borrowed from RioKid)
OldCurlyWolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2011, 21:06   #7
SCmasterblaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Hartford, Vermont
Posts: 16,020
Quote:
Originally Posted by janice6 View Post
Say, Stop or I'll shoot. Then shoot.



The threat hasn't stopped.
Amen!
__________________
Gun Ownership Offers Freedom in Many Dimensions
SCmasterblaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2012, 15:54   #8
Jack23
I. B. Glockin'
 
Jack23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Deer Park, Texas
Posts: 2,971


Quote:
Originally Posted by janice6 View Post
Say, Stop or I'll shoot. Then shoot.



The threat hasn't stopped.
Basically this. The instant that, due to proximity and level of threat perceived you feel like your life and health are in danger you shoot. Actually, in Texas you are NOT required to warn the aggressor verbally. Your fear of death or grievous injury is your impetus to shoot.
__________________
G-17, G-23, G-21, G-36, Ruger blackhawk, ss, Ruger 10/22, Ruger Mark II, Ruger SP101, British Webley MKI .455, Kel-Tec P32, S&W top break .38, S&W 24-3 .44spl N frame Colt 1903 .32, Heritage .22 Combo, Colt AR-15, LE6920.
Jack23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2011, 12:46   #9
MLittle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 574
My recommendation to you would be to refer to the Laws and Statutes in your state to see what threats by another party would allow a person holding a legit concealed carry permit to use deadly force if you are speaking about a threat outside your home or vehicle.

For me, I would need to feel that I, or my family was in immediate and unavoidable danger and or threat of bodily injury or death before I would discharge my weapon.
MLittle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2011, 12:55   #10
poodleshooter1
Senior Member
 
poodleshooter1's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 2,110
Quote:
Originally Posted by MLittle View Post
My recommendation to you would be to refer to the Laws and Statutes in your state to see what threats by another party would allow a person holding a legit concealed carry permit to use deadly force if you are speaking about a threat outside your home or vehicle.

For me, I would need to feel that I, or my family was in immediate and unavoidable danger and or threat of bodily injury or death before I would discharge my weapon.
Ayoob states that if attacked by multiple unarmed people, and you shoot two of them leaving one of them, you have the right to use lethal force because that person has proved an intent and capability to cause grave bodily injury or death. I'm paraphrasing but that's the jist of it.

In my state (WA), you are allowed to use deadly force to stop any felony committed upon your person. Robbery, kidnapping, or felony assault, etc.

So it stands to reason that if someone (one person)was armed with a knife and trying to assault me, that would be a felony, they have shown an intent to commit grave bodily inury or death. They are present and capable. If they drop it and eventually start advancing, it stands to reason they still intend to commit a felony upon me and are not walking up to shake my hand.

Last edited by poodleshooter1; 08-24-2011 at 12:56..
poodleshooter1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2011, 13:02   #11
txinvestigator
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: DFW
Posts: 1,907
Quote:
Originally Posted by poodleshooter1 View Post
Ayoob states that if attacked by multiple unarmed people, and you shoot two of them leaving one of them, you have the right to use lethal force because that person has proved an intent and capability to cause grave bodily injury or death. I'm paraphrasing but that's the jist of it.

In my state (WA), you are allowed to use deadly force to stop any felony committed upon your person. Robbery, kidnapping, or felony assault, etc.

So it stands to reason that if someone (one person)was armed with a knife and trying to assault me, that would be a felony, they have shown an intent to commit grave bodily inury or death. They are present and capable. If they drop it and eventually start advancing, it stands to reason they still intend to commit a felony upon me and are not walking up to shake my hand.
You are seriously simplifying Ayoobs statements, and I believe slighty mi-stating them.

Depending on the laws of your state, your last paragraph might or might not give justification.
__________________
CHL Instructor
txinvestigator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2011, 14:38   #12
poodleshooter1
Senior Member
 
poodleshooter1's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 2,110
Quote:
Originally Posted by txinvestigator View Post
You are seriously simplifying Ayoobs statements, and I believe slighty mi-stating them.

Depending on the laws of your state, your last paragraph might or might not give justification.
No, I'm not. He clearly stated in his book such a circumstance where multiple unarmed people attack, you shoot two of them, one is left standing. What do you do? His answer was pretty clear. Don't make me get the book out and type out what it says....
poodleshooter1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2011, 20:09   #13
Bogey
CLM Number 242
The Mouth®
 
Bogey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 36,781
Send a message via Yahoo to Bogey


Quote:
Originally Posted by txinvestigator View Post
You are seriously simplifying Ayoobs statements, and I believe slighty mi-stating them.

Depending on the laws of your state, your last paragraph might or might not give justification.
Laws in our State are written so ambiguously that ANY attempt at self defense is a crap shoot. Fortunately, I can't think of one self defense shoot that's been prosecuted in years. (ending ia a conviction) Something to do with the victim being able to articulate that they were in fear of great bodily harm, and the fact that the law says "any reasonable person" would fear for their lives. (paraphrased)

The biggest key here is "reasonable person".

Last edited by Bogey; 08-26-2011 at 20:40..
Bogey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2011, 12:50   #14
Adjuster
Senior Member
 
Adjuster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Ft. Lauderdale FL
Posts: 10,619
Shoot
Adjuster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2011, 12:52   #15
John Rambo
Raven
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Tampa, Fl.
Posts: 9,016
Huh? They dropped the knife after I shot them.
John Rambo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2011, 17:32   #16
WSMBUCK
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Rambo View Post
Huh? They dropped the knife after I shot them.
Yep knife fell when the 10mm bullet went through him,,,The End
WSMBUCK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2011, 17:36   #17
GlockinNJ
Senior Member
 
GlockinNJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: PRONJ
Posts: 2,710
Quote:
Originally Posted by WSMBUCK View Post
Yep knife fell when the 10mm bullet went through him,,,The End
Maybe you should switch to a SD round that expands better rather than punching little 10mm holes in them.
GlockinNJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2012, 18:49   #18
45gunner
Senior Member
 
45gunner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,348
Kentucky KRS 503.080

Hypothetical situation. Im a photographer walking in downtown louisville on the waterfront and im approached by one or two people and they want to steal my camera. They grab my camera and I struggle with them. I get punched or kicked and things start to escalate. Its dark. I don't know if they have a weapon on them or not. I pull a weapon a shot one or both them.

Under krs 503.080 part b is this a justifiable shooting!
__________________
Democracy is two wolves and one sheep voting on what to have for dinner, Liberty is one well armed sheep contesting the vote

Last edited by 45gunner; 11-19-2012 at 20:24..
45gunner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2012, 20:03   #19
TMNKWD
Senior Member
 
TMNKWD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: St. Louis, Missouri
Posts: 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by 45gunner View Post
Under krs 503.080 part b is this a justifiable shooting!
Maybe someone in KY can respond to the specifics of your question, but I think the take-a-way from all these are the "shoot-don't shoot" scenarios everyone can come up with.

During my CCW class the instructor taught how important it is for every CCW student to spend the time thinking of these scenarios, creating a response and then find what the law might say. This creates the best way for a CCW permit holder to have the best knowledge base to be a responsible permit holder and still protect themselves and their family.

You’ll spend thousands and thousands of hours carrying a handgun to maybe use for a few seconds to save your life or property, shouldn’t you spend a few hours on doing the research to make sure you make the right choice when you need the weapon?

Last edited by TMNKWD; 11-19-2012 at 20:04.. Reason: I'm a dope and forgot to add a paragraph
TMNKWD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2012, 10:49   #20
Bren
NRA Life Member
 
Bren's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 36,156
Quote:
Originally Posted by 45gunner View Post
Hypothetical situation. Im a photographer walking in downtown louisville on the waterfront and im approached by one or two people and they want to steal my camera. They grab my camera and I struggle with them. I get punched or kicked and things start to escalate. Its dark. I don't know if they have a weapon on them or not. I pull a weapon a shot one or both them.

Under krs 503.080 part b is this a justifiable shooting!
No, but it is a justified shooting under KRS 503.050 (self-defense), because the crime is robbery in the second degree, which is a "felony involving the use of force."

Quote:
503.050 Use of physical force in self-protection --
(2) The use of deadly physical force by a defendant upon another person is justifiable under subsection (1) only when the defendant believes that such force is necessary to protect himself against death, serious physical injury, kidnapping, sexual intercourse compelled by force or threat, felony involving the use of force, or under those circumstances permitted pursuant to KRS 503.055.
To be justified under KRS 503.080, the robbery would have to be in your home.

This is a specific issue I address in law enforcement training, because it is legal to use deadly force, under state law, to stop things like a robbery 2nd and an assault 3rd (minor assault or a bus driver, school volunteer, police, etc.) but that would be a civil rights violation under federal law, if done by a government agent.
__________________
Quote:
This is the internet, where you could pretend to be anything you want; so how come so many people on this forum pretend to be limpwristed sissies?
- Me, 2014.

Last edited by Bren; 11-20-2012 at 11:04..
Bren is online now   Reply With Quote

 
  
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:40.




Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 981
269 Members
712 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,672
Aug 11, 2014 at 2:31