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Old 05-22-2012, 20:18   #1
Matthew Courtney
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S&W M&P 15 Sport v Colt 6920

Well, as we discussed in prior threads, Louisiana Shooters Unlimited is purchasing a S&W M&P 15 Sport and a Colt 6920 for students to use during our carbine courses. We will take photos, record round counts, keep track of ammo types, document issues, and keep the rifles close together in terms of rounds down range. Every 1500 rounds or so, we will shoot the rifles for groups. Any thing else that we should measure or track over the life of the rifles to give an accurate review of the two rifles as we track their use in identical harsh training environments?

Thoughts?
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Old 05-22-2012, 20:26   #2
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Sounds neat. What is the purpose of this trial? Is it to see how the inexpensive Sport compares to a known standard?
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Old 05-22-2012, 20:33   #3
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Originally Posted by arclight610 View Post
Sounds neat. What is the purpose of this trial? Is it to see how the inexpensive Sport compares to a known standard?
The purpose is to provide data so that people can accurately assess how well a couple of popular rifles might meet their needs. I also have a bushmaster xm-15 with 2200 rounds through it that I will throw into the rotation when the other rifles reach similar round counts.
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Old 05-22-2012, 20:29   #4
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I am looking forward to your test. What will they run for lube?
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Old 05-22-2012, 20:36   #5
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I am looking forward to your test. What will they run for lube?
Mobile 1 for lube. Corrosion X on the exterior steel surfaces.
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Old 05-22-2012, 20:38   #6
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Mobile 1 for lube. Corrosion X on the exterior steel surfaces.
Oh dear lord, please no.

Order a few bottles of Slip 2k EWL.
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Old 05-22-2012, 20:52   #7
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I look forward to the test as well. Do you have any expectation or a hypothesis as to how the Sport will hold up in your environment?
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Old 05-22-2012, 21:09   #8
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I look forward to the test as well. Do you have any expectation or a hypothesis as to how the Sport will hold up in your environment?
I hope it will last at least 1/2 as long as the Colt, without having to spend too much to keep it running. We only charge $15 a day to rent one, while POI calls for 400 rounds/day.

Our cost on the Sport is $660, which means the break even round count is 17,600 plus 400 rounds for every $15 in replacement parts.

Cost on the Colt is $1191, break even round count is 31,760 plus 400 rounds for every $15 in parts.
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Old 05-22-2012, 20:56   #9
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Oh dear lord, please no.

Order a few bottles of Slip 2k EWL.
Why would I use a lube none of my guys are familiar with and would have to learn how to use? Mobile 1 has given us 100% reliability in Bushies and Colt's, excepting only when we have tried steel cased ammo in an A-2 configured Colt H-Bar Sporter.
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Old 05-22-2012, 21:04   #10
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Why would I use a lube none of my guys are familiar with and would have to learn how to use? Mobile 1 has given us 100% reliability in Bushies and Colt's, excepting only when we have tried steel cased ammo in an A-2 configured Colt H-Bar Sporter.
Learn to use?

One drop in each gas ring witness hole, one drop in the gas key, one on the cam pin, and a couple on a rag to wipe down the outside of the bolt carrier.

I know we don't always agree, but it's not like it's hard to lube an AR bolt, dude.
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Old 05-31-2012, 16:21   #11
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Why would I use a lube none of my guys are familiar with and would have to learn how to use? Mobile 1 has given us 100% reliability in Bushies and Colt's,...
Interesting that you’ve totally switched stances on lube in one week.
Oh well....there is no wrong answer.
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Old 05-22-2012, 20:34   #12
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Track the following, too...

parts replacement, no matter how small (gas rings, extractors, spring, etc)
Round count when lubed
Round count when cleaned, and how much cleaning done (bolt wipe-down vs field cleaning vs full strip, soak and clean)

Also, try to keep types of ammo consistent across both weapons. Would be a lot issue if students had to use class-issued ammo in those two rifles.
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Old 05-22-2012, 20:46   #13
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Originally Posted by WoodenPlank View Post
Track the following, too...

parts replacement, no matter how small (gas rings, extractors, spring, etc)
Round count when lubed
Round count when cleaned, and how much cleaning done (bolt wipe-down vs field cleaning vs full strip, soak and clean)

Also, try to keep types of ammo consistent across both weapons. Would be a lot issue if students had to use class-issued ammo in those two rifles.
Students have to use my ammo if they use my rifles, so both rifles will use the same amount of the same stuff, but what is being shot will evolve over time as I rotate my ammo FIFO. Right now we are into the ammo we bought in 2008(Georgia Arms 55gr fmj), but if the next 6 months are like the last 6, we will be into 2012 ammo by Christmas.
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Old 05-22-2012, 20:55   #14
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I'm definitely curious! The 6920 I expect shall perform beautifully. As many know, I am a fan of the Sport, for what it is intended for. I sincerely hope you guys put the screws to it, lol. Please don't puss out and tape the muzzles, etc. It'll be interesting to see "worst case" results from the lack of DC/FA.

Can't wait to see how the budget plinker holds up against the classic Colt!
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Old 05-22-2012, 21:15   #15
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Definitely subscribed to this thread
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Old 05-22-2012, 21:34   #16
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My guys are used to running 'em wetter than that, and I doubt that they are going to change to try out the latest in whiz bang super lubes. It wouldn't be hard to show 'em, but guys who have been doing something the same way for 20+ years (some for 40 +) are not going to change because some guy on the internet suggested it.
Plenty of people out there that swear by SLIP 2k, myself included. Pat Rogers' infamous Filthy 14 was lubed exclusively with SLIP. Heck, I even have a bottle of EWL inbound from Bravo Company right now.
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Old 05-22-2012, 21:49   #17
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Plenty of people out there that swear by SLIP 2k, myself included. Pat Rogers' infamous Filthy 14 was lubed exclusively with SLIP. Heck, I even have a bottle of EWL inbound from Bravo Company right now.
I'll tell you what, I'll tell the guys about the stuff and let 'em decide. Even though I own the place, it is run as a republic because I depend on everyone I work with. Will the slip2k stuff work on everything? One of my guys doesn't like having 2 bottles now. He nearly had a cow when we added corrosion x, but we are under 2 miles from salt water and have flooded with Gulf water twice since 2005, so rust is a major issue. If we add a third one he may pull a Socrates routine and drink it.
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Old 05-22-2012, 21:55   #18
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I'll tell you what, I'll tell the guys about the stuff and let 'em decide. Even though I own the place, it is run as a republic because I depend on everyone I work with. Will the slip2k stuff work on everything? One of my guys doesn't like having 2 bottles now. He nearly had a cow when we added corrosion x, but we are under 2 miles from salt water and have flooded with Gulf water twice since 2005, so rust is a major issue. If we add a third one he may pull a Socrates routine and drink it.
I've been using it everywhere I have needed oil-type lube of late, and it's been fantastic. Everything from my Mk. 18 to my shotgun and handguns all get it. It sticks around, doesn't cook off too quickly, doesn't evaporate during carry OR storage in a safe with dessicant.

At this point, the only other lube I will use is a grease for handgun slide rails and internals of my P7. The SLiP 2k is that damn good. Plus, you can adequately lube a BCG with about 5 drops, or soak it with about 8-10, so a 4oz bottle lasts quite a while. I still have well over half my 4oz bottle of S2K gun lube left over after a year of judicious use. It's getting relegated to handgun and shotgun duty (they get less oil than the AR) and the new EWL bottle is exclusively for AR use.
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Old 05-22-2012, 22:07   #19
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Originally Posted by WoodenPlank View Post
I've been using it everywhere I have needed oil-type lube of late, and it's been fantastic. Everything from my Mk. 18 to my shotgun and handguns all get it. It sticks around, doesn't cook off too quickly, doesn't evaporate during carry OR storage in a safe with dessicant.

At this point, the only other lube I will use is a grease for handgun slide rails and internals of my P7. The SLiP 2k is that damn good. Plus, you can adequately lube a BCG with about 5 drops, or soak it with about 8-10, so a 4oz bottle lasts quite a while. I still have well over half my 4oz bottle of S2K gun lube left over after a year of judicious use. It's getting relegated to handgun and shotgun duty (they get less oil than the AR) and the new EWL bottle is exclusively for AR use.
I use grease on some handgun rails, too. I clean the pistols personally, probably because the rental/loaner pistols get used in the low round courses, so they can go a while between cleanings. I am testing an XD to see if corrosion x works on it well enough to preclude a need for oil or grease.
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Old 05-22-2012, 21:37   #20
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Our guys use automatic trans fluid. A few use EWL (state Trooper AR15s)

Last edited by mixflip; 05-22-2012 at 21:37..
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Old 05-22-2012, 21:39   #21
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Interesting test.

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Old 05-22-2012, 22:17   #22
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My guys are used to running 'em wetter than that, and I doubt that they are going to change to try out the latest in whiz bang super lubes. It wouldn't be hard to show 'em, but guys who have been doing something the same way for 20+ years (some for 40 +) are not going to change because some guy on the internet suggested it.
Not a real good policy to have when teaching anything. Things change, better products come out better techniques surface. Being flexible is important.

If it was me class I would edit my original post. I wouldn't think that statement would be to good for business.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

Last edited by mjkeat; 05-22-2012 at 22:18..
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Old 05-23-2012, 05:40   #23
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Not a real good policy to have when teaching anything. Things change, better products come out better techniques surface. Being flexible is important.

If it was me class I would edit my original post. I wouldn't think that statement would be to good for business.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
Lubrication methods are optimized for one's environment. As we are in South Louisiana, we will use what works in this environment without regard for what is optimal in the desert. We need to prepare for the next fight, not the last one.

When I noticed Plank lived in Florida, and sinced he referenced a test by someone in a southern coastal state with a proven track record that I was able to confirm through multple sources, I decided to present his thoughts to my guys, three-fourths of them spent years in places like the jungles of central and south America. The lubrication methods that worked from 1989-2010 in Venezuela, Panama, and Colombia are not likely outdated in 2012 in Louisiana, but trainers who change how they do things each time a fad develops have been outdated here for a long time.

Two of the guys we worked with last week end do a fair amount of work aboard ships in hostile areas, and they have gone back to two point slings and running their guns wet, because they have found anti-piracy differs from house clearing and marine environments differ from the desert.
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Last edited by Matthew Courtney; 05-23-2012 at 06:06..
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Old 05-23-2012, 14:19   #24
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... but trainers who change how they do things each time a fad develops have been outdated here for a long time.
I would hope that your instructors do not consider every development, whether in training methodology or weapons maintenance, to be a fad.

Slip 2000 has been around for a few years now and has been vetted both by instructors and direct action types from various backgrounds, be it law enforcement or military backgrounds.

For clarity's sake, and I do not mean to offend, the vagueness of the background information concerning your instructors makes it somewhat difficult to validate your testing. Your website provides no further insight. For all we know you and the other instructors could be representing Colt or S&W's interests. Now I am not accusing you or your colleagues of anything, I just like to know that the opinions I consider come from a qualified source.

Do you plan on expounding on your collective backgrounds, here or on the site, in the future?

Cheers,
Dan
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Old 05-23-2012, 15:31   #25
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I would hope that your instructors do not consider every development, whether in training methodology or weapons maintenance, to be a fad.

Slip 2000 has been around for a few years now and has been vetted both by instructors and direct action types from various backgrounds, be it law enforcement or military backgrounds.

For clarity's sake, and I do not mean to offend, the vagueness of the background information concerning your instructors makes it somewhat difficult to validate your testing. Your website provides no further insight. For all we know you and the other instructors could be representing Colt or S&W's interests. Now I am not accusing you or your colleagues of anything, I just like to know that the opinions I consider come from a qualified source.

Do you plan on expounding on your collective backgrounds, here or on the site, in the future?

Cheers,
Dan
All the relavent information about our qualifications is on our Website or in this thread, and the testing procedures will be posted here. I do not give out any information about anyone we work with unless I have their explicit consent, so if you have specific questions, ask those questions and I will see what we can tell you. We are not going to be offering opinions, only data. If people ask questions about the data, we will do our best to answer those questions. Since you are an anonymous guy on the web, most of my guys will likely wish to remain the same.

Louisiana Shooters Unlimited is an educational institution which has been providing firearms training since the 256th returned from it's 2004-2005 deployment in support of Operation Iraqi Freedom. I co-founded Louisiana Shooters with Col. Daniel McLemore, who commanded the 256th during that deployment. I know most of the firearms instructors in Louisiana and all of our business is dependent upon referrals, so our reputation is the most valuable asset we have. If you are interested in taking a course from us, let us know what type of course and I will provide you appropriate references. We work with Dod contractors, Doe contractors, and are experienced developing POI to meet most contract and operational requirements.
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