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Old 07-05-2012, 09:51   #1
Chuck54
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Jim Cirillo

Has anybody else read his book "Guns,Bullets and Gunfights" ?


I enjoyed the book and on page 57 he addresses stopping power to my satisfaction.

I won't be a spoiler and tell you about the rest of the book.
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Old 07-05-2012, 10:04   #2
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I have not read the book, but in 2001 I met him at the F.L.E.T.C in Georgia. Really nice guy. Defiantly knew what he was talking about.

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Old 07-05-2012, 11:12   #3
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Was he a guest speaker ?
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Old 07-05-2012, 11:45   #4
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Quote:
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Was he a guest speaker ?
Yes he was.

It was in March 2001.

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Old 07-05-2012, 12:28   #5
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We went to different high schools together.




Seriously, I read it, liked it, and agree with what he said about it.
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Old 07-05-2012, 12:47   #6
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Is that the book written back before the advent of today's modern hollowpoints?

We all know 9mm FMJ sucks. So does .45 ACP.
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Old 07-05-2012, 12:59   #7
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I had it and loaned it someone and never got it back. Cirillo was a true badass but his views on ammo led him to endorse the ultra light ultra fast RCBD ammo before he died. I disagree with his conclusion there but he won plenty of shootouts.
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Old 07-05-2012, 14:44   #8
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Jim Cirillo and I believe Mas Ayoob both avocate(d) the Glock 30 as a carry / fighting pistol.
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Old 07-14-2012, 05:58   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4949shooter View Post
Jim Cirillo and I believe Mas Ayoob both avocate(d) the Glock 30 as a carry / fighting pistol.
Actually, in some gun mag articles hyping the RCBD ammo that G26S239 mentioned, he was using the G20 and G29 and shooting their 10mm product. In another gun-rag piece, he was shown CCW-ing a G29 ...

Just FYI ...

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Old 07-14-2012, 06:02   #10
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Quote:
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Actually, in some gun mag articles hyping the RCBD ammo that G26S239 mentioned, he was using the G20 and G29 and shooting their 10mm product. In another gun-rag piece, he was shown CCW-ing a G29 ...

Just FYI ...

10mm...Excellent!
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Old 07-05-2012, 18:08   #11
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He was a badass in real life, and an amazing shooter. I watched a video of his at my partner's house and he was shooting with the gun at chest height due to his injured shoulders. He was just indexing the gun without using the sights and it was like watching an exhibition shooter.
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Old 07-05-2012, 18:22   #12
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Originally Posted by cowboy1964 View Post
Is that the book written back before the advent of today's modern hollowpoints?...

He had used at one time or another 9mm +p+ and liked it. He also swore by the M1 Carbine with 110 gr. HP's and said it put people down right now. The again, he loved his own .45 ACP full WC bullets for the 1st shot in a 1911 as well as full wadcutters in .44 & .45 DA revolvers. These of course were his own handloads in the days before the ACLU and the hand wringing Liberals for the most part


Quote:
Originally Posted by 4949shooter View Post
Jim Cirillo and I believe Mas Ayoob both avocate(d) the Glock 30 as a carry / fighting pistol.
At the end of his life he carried a Glock G30 & a G27 as a backup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WiskyT View Post
...he was shooting with the gun at chest height due to his injured shoulders. He was just indexing the gun without using the sights...

I shoot the same way due to a bad shoulder and also because like Jim I learned in the old days of the REAL Weaver Stance with DA revolvers:


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Old 07-06-2012, 10:49   #13
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I have not read the book, so please share his thoughts on stopping power. I know in the NYC stake out squad he was limited to a 38 and had Super Vel make him special 110gr HP's that would be considered +p. I believe he attended autopsies to see what performed and what did not. I think he was in the class of light and fast bullets.

Again, please share his toughts in the book on this subject.
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Old 07-06-2012, 10:59   #14
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I just started reading this book. He loves those wadcutters. I keep meaning to get more info on those. I could've sworn he referenced wc performing better than hp at the time.

Are wadcutters banned now? I assume today's hollow points are way better.

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Old 07-10-2012, 16:36   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Droid noob View Post

Are wadcutters banned now? I assume today's hollow points are way better.
I think that's subjective. I've read where the WC is pretty accurate for a flat-nosed bullet. And they hit like a freight train! With enough power behind it, a WC is a formidable round.

I'm sure someone with a lot more and better info will chime in.
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Old 07-10-2012, 17:07   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Droid noob View Post
Are wadcutters banned now? I assume today's hollow points are way better.
Wadcutters are not banned, never have been. They are used by target shooters.

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Old 07-10-2012, 17:21   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glockdude1 View Post
Wadcutters are not banned, never have been. They are used by target shooters.

Maybe the most accurate handgun bullet out there. Trouble is keeping them stabilized out past 20-25 yards, hence the invention of the semi-wadcutter, which is the majority of what I cast and shoot today.

Read up on Elmer Keith if you want to know more about that style of bullet. They still work.

As far as hollow points being better... meh. I'll get by without 'em.

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Old 07-10-2012, 17:27   #18
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Remember, Cirillo liked WC's in .44 & .45 cal. These were his own hot handloads and not cream puff over the counter crap.
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Old 07-10-2012, 17:41   #19
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His comments and the quotes from him in the very first "Combat Handguns" magazine issues were priceless.

Quite the gunfighter. After all of his shootings on the Stake Out Squad he said "I never so much as nicked a can of beans".

remember about the wadcutters, they were also HBs (Hollow Based) great at 25 yds but they got shakey past there in most guns. The SWC does the same thing on a paper target and really delivers on game in the larger calibers.

You can "shoot for the far shoulder/hip" with them and probably get there
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Old 07-10-2012, 12:36   #20
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Old 07-14-2012, 08:07   #21
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When my testosterone levels rise I carry a G29, now with Underwood 165 gr GD ammo.
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Old 07-14-2012, 08:24   #22
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I met Jim at FLETC in 1986 when he was a firearms instructor for Customs after retiring from NYPD. He autorgraphed my target for me that I still have to this day. We met again in Puerto Rico when I was on special assignment with USMS. He was hired to come down and teach a tactical pistol course. We had dinner/drinks and the stories he told were priceless. Cherished memories from a true hero in my mind... At that time he talked about hand loading a hollow based wadcutter upside down so that the hollow cavity would expand when it struck the bad guy. He was a one of a kind guy...... BTW a wadcutter is a very accurate round... I have seen 3" groups fired a 50 yards with this round. It does not lose accuracy past 25 yds.....ask any old PPC shooter...
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Old 07-14-2012, 22:25   #23
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Well, yes and no. The wadcutter round, properly loaded, does not destabilize at 25 yards. PPC shooters can use it to 50. However, my experience (and that of many others) is that past 50, they start to go everywhere due to destabilization.

And a swaged lead hollow-based wadcutter, when loaded backwards and slightly hotter than the normal bullseye load, will pretty much turn a raccoon inside out at 8 yards.
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Old 07-15-2012, 04:40   #24
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Well, yes and no. The wadcutter round, properly loaded, does not destabilize at 25 yards. PPC shooters can use it to 50. However, my experience (and that of many others) is that past 50, they start to go everywhere due to destabilization...

I had always heard the same, but there are some who say that WFN bullets CAN be accurate to 100 yds. IF driven fast. I don't know nor will I know as I limit myself to 50 yds. & under with a Ruger SA in the bush using Keith SWC's. If anyone wants to read themselves into a coma on this topic about WFN at long distance then knock yourself out:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/arch.../t-141624.html
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Old 07-15-2012, 06:40   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vanilla_gorilla View Post
Well, yes and no. The wadcutter round, properly loaded, does not destabilize at 25 yards. PPC shooters can use it to 50. However, my experience (and that of many others) is that past 50, they start to go everywhere due to destabilization.
It's a velocity issue. The typical full WC load seems to be right on the edge of stabilization. Some guns are faster than others. So, a fast 4" gun and they shoot fine at 50 yards. I've seen them shoot shotgun patterns at 10 yards out of a snub. The same snub shot a fist sized group at 25 yards with a standard LRN load running 100 fps faster. If you handload the WC's to a higher velocity, they will likely stabilize at longer ranges.

FWIW, in official PPC competition, the NRA rules prohibit full WC's. They do allow them in Bullseye and they shoot to 50 yards in Bullseye.
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