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Old 07-22-2012, 20:52   #1
alank2
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If you use a stock barrel, do you reload your brass?

Hi Everyone,


If you use a stock barrel, do you reload your brass?

I tried a few what I thought were 30K or lower pressure loads, and the result was 18 out of 20 cases so balooned that resizing them gives a sharp crease where the sizing die stops. I also had a pretty hefty gouge in the case rim.

Thanks,

Alan
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Old 07-22-2012, 21:04   #2
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I absolutely reload brass fired from the stock G20 barrel and have never had a problem like you describe. I'm assuming that the brass you're resizing isn't glock smiled, right?

What dies are you using? I usually use a Redding carbide die, but I have also used the Lee carbide die, and I haven't had this issue. Ever.

Try measuring your fired case head diameter just above the extraction groove before resizing. For Starline brass, that will measure .422" before firing, and after one of firing a full power load should still measure less than .424" Resizing won't reduce that diameter unless you run the brass through a pass-thru resizer. If it's bigger than .424" after one firing, then you might be getting excessive pressure with that load, and that would make sense that you are getting a ridge after resizing.
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Old 07-23-2012, 15:10   #3
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Originally Posted by TDC20 View Post
I absolutely reload brass fired from the stock G20 barrel and have never had a problem like you describe. I'm assuming that the brass you're resizing isn't glock smiled, right?

What dies are you using? I usually use a Redding carbide die, but I have also used the Lee carbide die, and I haven't had this issue. Ever.

Try measuring your fired case head diameter just above the extraction groove before resizing. For Starline brass, that will measure .422" before firing, and after one of firing a full power load should still measure less than .424" Resizing won't reduce that diameter unless you run the brass through a pass-thru resizer. If it's bigger than .424" after one firing, then you might be getting excessive pressure with that load, and that would make sense that you are getting a ridge after resizing.
Do you mean 0.434"? After firing a hot load?
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Old 07-23-2012, 17:00   #4
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Here is a photo of one of mine after sizing in my Dillon sizing die. The dimension prior to sizing at the widest part of the bulge is .434".

The 10 Ring
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Old 07-31-2012, 17:52   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WeeWilly View Post
Here is a photo of one of mine after sizing in my Dillon sizing die. The dimension prior to sizing at the widest part of the bulge is .434".

The 10 Ring
Mine look like this with Lee carbide and stock G20sf barrel.

Is this considered normal? This post has me really looking at my brass!
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Old 07-31-2012, 18:41   #6
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In fact, I've decided to post a pic of mine.

On the left is one of my worst bluged cases I can find in my once fired brass shot from stock G20sf barrel. This is all top brass from BVAC bulk 180gr@1200fps.

The middle is a resized one just like it, showing a definite ring on the bottom. I think the difference is there are no square corners or abrupt changes of direction where the die stopped.

The right one is a finished reloaded of these brass. .421 on the mouth.

Do these look alright to you all? I haven't reloaded shot brass much yet in 10mm and these pics got me wondering, just what is right/normal?

I figured that at worst, I could show what brass is definitely (or not?) acceptable.

BTW I am using these brass on my LCT with the 4-piece Kempf die set to load 150gr nosler 1.255" with 7.0 up to 7.5g Unique, for accuracy only. Nosler list this as "the most accurate load tested", and I want to see.
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The 10 Ring - Click for larger version  
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Old 07-31-2012, 20:06   #7
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Originally Posted by walrus108 View Post
Mine look like this with Lee carbide and stock G20sf barrel.

Is this considered normal? This post has me really looking at my brass!
It is normal for my brass sized with my Dillon die. The brass works fine in my Stock G20 and G29 barrels as well as my G20 KKM barrel.
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Old 07-24-2012, 00:01   #8
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Alan,

I also have the Redding Titanium Carbide die. It sizes the brass down to about .418". The carbide part of my die has a shiny mirror finish and a fairly generous radius on it.

I do remember someone having a similar issue with the sizing rings on his brass a while back. I'll see if I can locate the thread. His problem was that he was trying to get full power loads using a powder that was just too fast for the application, so the brass was flowing outward at the case head a bit too much. When the sizer got to the case head, it left a similar ring. It doesn't seem like that is your problem if the largest diameter at your case heads measures .425"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taterhead View Post
Do you mean 0.434"? After firing a hot load?
Taterhead,

I'm definitely in the minority here on how I determine pressure limits from fired brass measurements. I know most people measure the case expansion along the thin walls of the case, and that does have some merit. The reason I don't measure there is that part of the brass is constrained by the chamber when it expands, and there is almost always a little bit of spring-back after the pressure drops. So the expansion there approaches a diminishing number as you approach maximum pressure. Instead, I measure expansion at the case head, which is around the thick part of the brass web just above the extraction groove. Even though the expansion there is not as large on a moderately loaded round, the brass isn't constrained by the chamber there, so it is free to increase as the pressure goes up. You get a much more linear measurement, especially at max loadings. I also only measure the first loading with Starline brass. After the first firing, you don't really know what the starting dimension of the case head was, and the brass will start work hardening more after each firing.

I'm not saying one method is right and the other is wrong, I just have found that for me, measuring at the case head gives me what I feel is more useful data.
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Old 07-25-2012, 21:40   #9
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Originally Posted by TDC20 View Post
Alan,

Taterhead,

I'm definitely in the minority here on how I determine pressure limits from fired brass measurements. I know most people measure the case expansion along the thin walls of the case, and that does have some merit. The reason I don't measure there is that part of the brass is constrained by the chamber when it expands, and there is almost always a little bit of spring-back after the pressure drops. So the expansion there approaches a diminishing number as you approach maximum pressure. Instead, I measure expansion at the case head, which is around the thick part of the brass web just above the extraction groove. Even though the expansion there is not as large on a moderately loaded round, the brass isn't constrained by the chamber there, so it is free to increase as the pressure goes up. You get a much more linear measurement, especially at max loadings. I also only measure the first loading with Starline brass. After the first firing, you don't really know what the starting dimension of the case head was, and the brass will start work hardening more after each firing.

I'm not saying one method is right and the other is wrong, I just have found that for me, measuring at the case head gives me what I feel is more useful data.
Ah. Got it. That makes sense if you are measuring a different spot. Thanks for clarifying.
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Old 07-22-2012, 21:13   #10
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Hi,

I would say they might have been on the edge of wanting to smile. Of the 18 that creased when resized, they range from 0.422 to 0.424 with only one being 0.425. New cases are 0.421. Starline nickel. I am using Redding pro series carbide. Could the sizing die be too small?

It is sizing them to 0.4165 to 0.417...

Thanks,

Alan
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Old 07-23-2012, 06:33   #11
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Hi,

I moved your reply from the other thread to this one...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Any Cal. View Post
I am assuming that when you say a sharp edge, you just mean a visiblie line where the die stopped sizing. If it is something different than that, then there may be other issues.
Here is what they look like after resizing.

The 10 Ring

Thanks,

Alan
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Old 07-23-2012, 10:50   #12
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Originally Posted by alank2 View Post
..Here is what they look like after resizing.

The 10 Ring

Thanks,

Alan
I reload my brass I shoot out of my stock G20 and G29 barrels. All my hotter loads get bulged down by the head and using my Dillon sizer, after sizing the bulge is quite noticable, although no definitive line is there like in your picture. I think mine has no definitive line mainly because the mouth of my die is radiused, so the transition to the bulge is less dramatic.

I lube my cases with Hornaday One Shot as well, seems to help with sizing of the most bulged brass.

BTW, my KKM barrel's chamber down by the head is not a great deal tighter than my stock barrel, if at all, so I seem to get about the same amount of bulge.

I also get extractor rash on some of my hottest loads, mainly on my G20 (less so on my G29). The extractor rash doesn't seem to affect loading or feeding in subsequent cycles.

I only load my nuke loads in virgin Starline brass, all the reloads are lighter (i.e. say, 180gr @ 1225fps, etc.).

Last edited by WeeWilly; 07-23-2012 at 10:58..
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Old 07-23-2012, 13:05   #13
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That would scare me too! My dies size down to the same spot, but don't leave a big step like that. Is it really several thou thick? On mine i can just barely feel the line with a fingernail.
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Old 07-23-2012, 13:14   #14
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Yes is do! It is all specific to the particular glock firearm. On my 6th, and 3, bulged brass so bad, I would not reload it. The other 3 you would think have match grade chambers. The newest of the 3 with loose chambers was a G20SF 3rd Gen, and it was the worst! Threw the brass away immediately. Like I said it varies from firearm to firearm.
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Old 07-23-2012, 14:01   #15
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Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by alwaysshootin View Post
Yes is do! It is all specific to the particular glock firearm. On my 6th, and 3, bulged brass so bad, I would not reload it. The other 3 you would think have match grade chambers. The newest of the 3 with loose chambers was a G20SF 3rd Gen, and it was the worst! Threw the brass away immediately. Like I said it varies from firearm to firearm.
Wow, that is disappointing. I guess mine is a loose chamber. I took the barrel off and put a new starline case (before resizing) in it and there is a ton of room around the case. I was really hoping to use the factory barrel. I suppose this means that I can, but only if I don't reload brass shot from it...

Thanks,

Alan
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Old 07-26-2012, 16:00   #16
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Originally Posted by alank2 View Post
Hi,

I moved your reply from the other thread to this one...

Here is what they look like after resizing.

The 10 Ring

Thanks,

Alan


alank2


I have a set of Lee dies that are undersized, and they are the EXACT twin to the brass in your picture with the big wide band around the bottom. Also when seating a bullet, I get a really pronouned buldge at the base of the bullet in the brass as well...

Put those dies on the shelf and said "heck with this.." That is a mess looking to happen.

I then talked with RCBS (which is about all I use any way) and they sent me a die .1K under sized and that problem went away, meaning the Lee die was a tad to undersized, and also the RCBS allowed for a better 'base" at the bottom of the die to go a bit further down.

All this will probably be sticks to swallow with folks, but all this taking the huge buldge out, and shooting, and taking it out, and shooting, one day, WILL have a pay day. Like putting ammo in and out of a mag all the time and weakening the spring. One day the place the "buldge was ironed out several times" is going to land at the six 'oclock area in the OEM barrel, and blow !

I promise you !


You can't place that type strain even on brass with out making it weaker in that spot each time.

The pics you have shown above here, withe the reall under sized squeezed down brass with the wide belt at bottom, begins to weaken the brass around the top part of that wide band at the bottom web area, and it 'will crack open'.

I don't know how you got a die so undersized with out ordering it, but that is what makes that band at the bottom, and ALSO will give you a REAL tight friction fit on the bullet and a decent buldge usually at the base of the seated bullet.

I shoot my hottest loads through the Stock G20 barrel, and use the RCBS .1k undersize to iron that out, and fire it 'once more', and then they get loaded down to 'popper' play time stuff. (when in the OEM barrel).

If I want to save brass life a bit, I use the LW barrel in the G20..

Some Guys say they get dozens of loadings, and even more some of them, with their hot loaded OEM barrels. Folks can get away at times for years of doing this and that, but one day..... !


I know a nut case that never checked his oil in his truck, I looked at it one day caused the motor smelled like it was burning... The dipstick was BONE dry . I ask how long it had been since he added/changed oil, he hung his head and said about a year or so.... (older truck btw). Well then it one day freezes up or blows up. Point made.

Point is: "One day." !


So, I also saw on page 3 here I think it was, your split case...

For many years I been shooting 11.0grs BD and 10.7grs BD, and 10.5grs BD With different cast bullets and XTP's and never a problem, at all in the stock OEM Glock barrel in G20/and G29. But again, I only shoot my hottest loads in them 2X, and then their loaded down. Use the AM barrel with ya want a "tad" more case life.


I had a split case (new case) the other day exactly like yours with WW new outta the sack. But was due to 'over pressure' in a load I fired.

The loads you describe are real common around here and else where in 180/200gr loadings in 10mm and They really aren't case spliters. "In this 'case' of yours, (haha) I can't tell ya cause I was not there. maybe a boo boo at the bench a flicker in the powder scale, Got one seated waaaay to short, a bad case.... You may never know.

OR... It may be that extremely squeezed down case (looks like to me at least in the pics on page 1) "bulding pressure", along with some other factors, especially IF you are having a tremendously tight friction fit and then a fairly tight taper crimp, and or if you are also seating a tad to deep, all this plus about one dozen other factors can cause problems.

If it were me, I would at least try another die, say RCBS carbide, and see if that doesn't stop the problem/s. I tell ya man, mine in that Lee, look to the nth degree just like those pictured on page one, and they were bad news...


Good luck !








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Old 07-26-2012, 16:26   #17
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OK amigo, I went in the gun room and ran two OEM fired cases from my G20 through the Lee undersized die..

Here they are:


The 10 Ring


Look familiar ?? haha They look EXACTLY like yours if I would have held the cell phone better i the low light I had the BELT would have been identical ! (pic was not that good)

i tell you, these cased just enough over pressure from such a tight fitting bullet (crazy sounding or not) they gave problems, and man will they roll around inside a stock Glock barrel ! PLUS the belt, as I said, (the magnum belt looking area) is a great place for blow outs.

Yes you can reload your brass from the oem... But get a better die arrangement and watch them "fit" better and work better....



Good luck






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Old 07-26-2012, 21:03   #18
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Originally Posted by alank2 View Post
Hi,

I moved your reply from the other thread to this one...

Here is what they look like after resizing.

The 10 Ring

Thanks,

Alan


Alan,

Guys , got to call it a night here for me... But a picture is worth a thousand words ... Alan, your brass is sized way to tight. The bullets are seated to deep and to tightly. the bands on the bottom of the cases will bust I assure you.

My Lee sizer die did this as I showed you in my (poor cell pic I did for ya).


MINE...

The 10 Ring

Because of this, pressures went up. This and seating to deep with these BD loads are a mess looking to happen my amigo.

Plus the re-working of the brass in a semi auto "especially" and in a Glock OEM "especially, running hot loads is putting a really weak stress spot on that buldged area every time you resize it down. Because of the nature of the size of the buldge it makes the sizing, re-sizing even worse in these type guns, with these type loads..... One day !

Don't make it complicated.. It is a matter of a new die, watch your COAL, "go by the load data book" for the bullet and powder charge being used and the COAL they say to use with that bullet and primer and powder charge... It is the book for a reason !

No reason you should not be great, if ya follow these simple steps.


Hope the new die works for ya my friend. I feel for ya. I been there and done that.. Not being smart. I still reccomend the RCBS sizer die for the 10mm. You try these things and then decide. I'm sure you'll be fine. These are meant to be suggestions based on my experience with the same issue.

Unless you use an AM barrel, no matter what others may do, I do encourage you to only use your hottest loads a couple times in that OEM barrel, per piece of brass, then go down in the loading of them if your going to stay with the stock barrel. Again amigo, this ain't a revolver, and it ain't even a greatly supported semi auto to begin with so use sense and stay safe with it all..



Bless ya!

I'm confident you will do well... Be encouraged !



P>S> We did not get the rain at all... AS usual, it went around us. About 10/12 years with hardly a rain, and over a year now with none at all. The ranch could be called "gone with the wind." Now if we just get through summer with no fires !!







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Old 07-23-2012, 14:10   #19
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I use both stock and aftermarket and yes I reload the cases! Never seen anything with a crease like you're resizing die is apparently doing. Wow!
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Old 09-18-2012, 09:54   #20
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I use both stock and aftermarket and yes I reload the cases! Never seen anything with a crease like you're resizing die is apparently doing. Wow!
This. Never seen anything that bad and I reload 'em 'til they die.
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