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Old 09-30-2012, 18:09   #1
ABNAK
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Keyholing DoubleTap 357Sig

DoubleTap 357Sig rounds (*supposedly* 125gr Sierras but don't look like Sierras) that I personally chrono'd at 1452fps average. However, the ES was 154fps. Maybe that's why the ES was so high, not to mention the accuracy sucking?

What would cause a handgun bullet to keyhole?

Now, before you ask, I checked to rule out barrel causes. I have both a Glock 32 factory barrel as well as a 4" Storm Lake drop-in barrel and it keyholed with both. Checked again by using Cor Bon Sierras, Buffalo Bore GD, and Speer GD, which all gave nice round holes. The DT was in the perfect outline of a bullet profile with just about every round.

More than a little disappointed by DT, as many here have been. Not the velocity in this case but perhaps even worse.





So, just out of curiosity, what would a tumbling 125gr bullet at 1452fps do ballisitcs-wise? No doubt it wouldn't act like a normal HP would, but would it be destructive? Hell, might as well be a tumbling FMJ in that case.
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Last edited by ABNAK; 09-30-2012 at 18:12..
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Old 09-30-2012, 18:12   #2
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Stay away from the boutique ammo.
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Old 09-30-2012, 18:15   #3
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Originally Posted by Foxtrotx1 View Post
Stay away from the boutique ammo.

Unfortunately, they're the only ones who don't water down the 357Sig to mid-1300's. It was designed to replicate the .357 Magnum in it's 125gr loading, and 1350+/- is quite a bit short of that.

But yeah, I'm done with DT.
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Old 10-09-2012, 13:53   #4
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Originally Posted by ABNAK View Post
Unfortunately, they're the only ones who don't water down the 357Sig to mid-1300's. It was designed to replicate the .357 Magnum in it's 125gr loading, and 1350+/- is quite a bit short of that.

But yeah, I'm done with DT.
Not really. Chrono some current manuf 125gr 357mag in a 4" rev, you'll belucky to get to 1350fps. Most of the factory 357sig gets to that in a 3.5"-4" pistol bbl. The bullet keyholing is obvious @ 0.352" dia. Completely unacceptable in a factory round.
I have handloaded the 125gr Sierra to 1400fps w/ 1 1/2" 50ft accuracy. So it's not the bullet.
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Old 09-30-2012, 18:16   #5
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Pull a bullet and measure the diameter with a micrometer. Also look at the amount of crimp on the bullet, should be a slight ring around the bullet with no deformation. Undersized bullet are known to cause stability issues. If the bullets were not Sierras they may be Montana Gold JHPs. Montana Gold usually has quality bullet however their JHP rounds are more for target practice and not SD IMO. Post some pics if you got them.
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Old 09-30-2012, 18:21   #6
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Pull a bullet and measure the diameter with a micrometer. Also look at the amount of crimp on the bullet, should be a slight ring around the bullet with no deformation. Undersized bullet are known to cause stability issues. If the bullets were not Sierras they may be Montana Gold JHPs. Montana Gold usually has quality bullet however their JHP rounds are more for target practice and not SD IMO. Post some pics if you got them.
They're not Montana Golds as they don't have that "gold" color. They almost look like Winchester 125gr bullets. Will post a pic soon.
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Old 09-30-2012, 19:02   #7
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Caliber Corner

Caliber Corner

You can clearly see the difference in the holes (through a cheap hibachi I had in the garage that I knew would show it more decisively than paper). The two DT's are obvious, the other 3 are the BB GD, Speer GD, and CB Sierra.

The bullet on the right is a Cor Bon 125gr Sierra (from back before they made their own bullets like they do now). The one on the left is the *supposed* Sierra loaded by DoubleTap. It's easy to see the DT is NOT a Sierra.

I don't have a bullet puller so I can mic it.
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Old 09-30-2012, 21:33   #8
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Yeah they look like Winchester or Remington JHP. I checked their site and they are using Winchester or Remington JHP on other calibers. Seems kinda typical from DT for the last few years. You do not know what you are going to get.

The 115gr Winchester JHP, just slightly shorter than the 124gr. http://www.midwayusa.com/product/139...d-hollow-point

With Winchesters quality over the past couple years I would not be surprised if the bullet is undersized. I pulled a bullet out of WWB .357sig ammo and miced the bullet and it measured .353".

The description does say Sierra but the bullets in the pic sure do not look like Sierras. Guess if you want them right you have to load them yourself.
http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/cat...roducts_id=395

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Old 09-30-2012, 22:32   #9
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Stay away from the boutique ammo.

Yes, that's good advice. I've had both good luck and bad luck with boutique ammo. I'd be dollars ahead had I just stuck with quality American-made ammo and a few foreign rounds like Sellier & Bellot.

The boutique rounds that have worked for me are really no improvement over the big US ammo companies' offerings and typically cost more.
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Old 10-01-2012, 09:29   #10
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I would inspect the suspect bullet's diameter, as others have said.
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Old 10-01-2012, 11:50   #11
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I would inspect the suspect bullet's diameter, as others have said.
I'll pull one with my buddies bullet puller and mic it later today (hopefully).
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Old 10-01-2012, 12:43   #12
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I'll pull one with my buddies bullet puller and mic it later today (hopefully).
I would think it unlikely that the bullets are undersized, but that would account for the keyholing . . . .
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Old 10-01-2012, 19:36   #13
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From what I can see in the photo they look like the Winchester bullet that comes in the WWB 125gr JHP.

That bullet, in my opinion, is a POS for SD. It fragments super bad. Not just a little bit of fragmentation, but full jacket separation and a thin lead disk is what you have left if shooting water jugs. It basically explodes on contact. I saved one, the retained weight is a fraction of 125gr.
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Old 10-02-2012, 10:42   #14
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From what I can see in the photo they look like the Winchester bullet that comes in the WWB 125gr JHP.

That bullet, in my opinion, is a POS for SD. It fragments super bad. Not just a little bit of fragmentation, but full jacket separation and a thin lead disk is what you have left if shooting water jugs. It basically explodes on contact. I saved one, the retained weight is a fraction of 125gr.
If a 125 does that, my 115gr WW JHP +p+ would fragment even worse.
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Old 10-02-2012, 12:06   #15
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From what I can see in the photo they look like the Winchester bullet that comes in the WWB 125gr JHP.

That bullet, in my opinion, is a POS for SD. It fragments super bad. Not just a little bit of fragmentation, but full jacket separation and a thin lead disk is what you have left if shooting water jugs. It basically explodes on contact. I saved one, the retained weight is a fraction of 125gr.
I believe it, especially at over 1400fps.
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Old 10-04-2012, 11:38   #16
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I'll make no excuses for DT. Only that I think since another company went to a new bullet, that the SIERRA's might be in short supply, or have become cruelly expensive.

If a person doesn't want the Winchester version, then there is always the more street
proven Gold Dot, as loaded by Double Tap or Speer.

I actually like the Barnes/TAC-XPs the best ( no way for jacket/core separation) but price seems to be the factor there.
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Old 10-04-2012, 12:34   #17
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The Sierra JHPs have been in stock pretty much every place I have checked on the net in the last couple years. Probably cost cutting to use the the same bullet in 9mm and .357sig.

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Old 10-05-2012, 09:58   #18
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I just thought of something. Has anyone inspected the muzzle crown on the subject pistol? Any dent there could cause bullet tumbling.
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Old 10-05-2012, 14:47   #19
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I just thought of something. Has anyone inspected the muzzle crown on the subject pistol? Any dent there could cause bullet tumbling.

It didn't do it with the other rounds. Also, used two barrels: one was a factory G32 barrel and the other was a Storm Lake drop-in. One keyhole in the pic was from each barrel.
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Old 10-06-2012, 12:04   #20
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Aha

Quote:
Originally Posted by ABNAK View Post
It didn't do it with the other rounds. Also, used two barrels: one was a factory G32 barrel and the other was a Storm Lake drop-in. One keyhole in the pic was from each barrel.
I see . . . . .
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Old 10-06-2012, 16:06   #21
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The bullet is not Seirra. Bullets Key Hole when they are not stabilized either due to too slow rifling, or the bullet weight being strangely distributed in the bullet. The Seirra load from DT is a good round and if you have anymore of the bad rounds, please send it back to Mike and find out what is going on. That load most closely duplicates the 125gr SJHP round of the 357 mag made by Federal or Remington. In the 357 Mag (and Seirra sig), the bullet rapidly expand, fragments and loses 30-35% of its weight. 70% of the bullet penetrate over 11". Back when men were men, that was the external ballistics of probably the most effective 125gr 357magnum round. Just because we now have bonded bullets, do not fool yourself into thinking that anything before would not quickly stop a threat. Although I carry the 125gr 357 Sig HST now, I would feel very safe with the DT Seirra load, assuming DT gets its bullet issue straight.
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Old 10-06-2012, 18:15   #22
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The bullet is not Seirra. Bullets Key Hole when they are not stabilized either due to too slow rifling, or the bullet weight being strangely distributed in the bullet. The Seirra load from DT is a good round and if you have anymore of the bad rounds, please send it back to Mike and find out what is going on. That load most closely duplicates the 125gr SJHP round of the 357 mag made by Federal or Remington. In the 357 Mag (and Seirra sig), the bullet rapidly expand, fragments and loses 30-35% of its weight. 70% of the bullet penetrate over 11". Back when men were men, that was the external ballistics of probably the most effective 125gr 357magnum round. Just because we now have bonded bullets, do not fool yourself into thinking that anything before would not quickly stop a threat. Although I carry the 125gr 357 Sig HST now, I would feel very safe with the DT Seirra load, assuming DT gets its bullet issue straight.
Well for starters, shipping ammo is kind of a PIA; you have to get an ORM-D sticker and pay hazmat. Then of course if he isn't using Sierras now (which we've kind of ascertained here) then why go through the hassle of sending it back? All he would do (at most) is send me more of the same.

And I agree with you about the duplication of .357 magnum ballistics with bullets that aren't bonded. That is why I'm so pissed but mainly disappointed about these DT rounds. I chrono'd them at 1452fps average from a 4" barrel and was going to use them as my carry load. Now I guess it's Cor Bon for the time being until I can get some of Underwood's "improved" 357Sig, albeit a Gold Dot and not a cup-and-core bullet.

Why oh why do the major manufacturers water down the 357Sig? To me, 1330-1350fps isn't much of an improvement over a 9mm +P+ to sacrifice less capacity and more recoil.......now 1450fps? That is what I'm talking about!
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Old 10-07-2012, 07:34   #23
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Well for starters, shipping ammo is kind of a PIA; you have to get an ORM-D sticker and pay hazmat. Then of course if he isn't using Sierras now (which we've kind of ascertained here) then why go through the hassle of sending it back? All he would do (at most) is send me more of the same.

And I agree with you about the duplication of .357 magnum ballistics with bullets that aren't bonded. That is why I'm so pissed but mainly disappointed about these DT rounds. I chrono'd them at 1452fps average from a 4" barrel and was going to use them as my carry load. Now I guess it's Cor Bon for the time being until I can get some of Underwood's "improved" 357Sig, albeit a Gold Dot and not a cup-and-core bullet.

Why oh why do the major manufacturers water down the 357Sig? To me, 1330-1350fps isn't much of an improvement over a 9mm +P+ to sacrifice less capacity and more recoil.......now 1450fps? That is what I'm talking about!
There are no hazmat fees for shipping loaded ammo. It needs to be marked ORM-D, but you can do it with a sharpie. Also, you can print out an ORM-D lablel and glue it on if it needs to be more "official" looking. You CAN NOT ship ammo through the US Mail however.

As to why are the loads watered down, my guess is two reasons. One, there is no advantage to driving the bullet 100fps faster. The second is that if you drive them at 1450fps and expect them to be used by anybody, at anytime, in any gun, under any conditions, you will get problems. Problems lead to a loss of good will and the manufacturer's reputation suffers.

Apparently a 125 at 1450fps, in 357Sig, is more trouble than it is worth if you are an ammo manufacturer.

If you are going to be shooting boutique ammo for the purpose of driving a 9mm 125 grain bullet at high velocity, an arbitrary goal to be sure, you would do much better with the bigger bottleneck rounds anyway. the 9x25 Dillon is available from DT and supposedly does 1700fps with a 125.
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Old 10-07-2012, 13:12   #24
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the 9x25 Dillon is available from DT and supposedly does 1700fps with a 125.
1700 FPS out of a defensive handgun? Awesome!
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Old 10-06-2012, 20:33   #25
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Just pull the bullet and send that. I have just started to trust DT again and if he is going to start substituting bullets again, our relationship is over.
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