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Old 10-02-2012, 17:47   #1
OctoberRust
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Birdshot OK for badguys?! What the heck?

I do not endorse the opinion in this video. I'm just curious on everyone else's thoughts.....

Me personally, I use 00 buck in my mossberg 500 for HD. The smallest I'd go is number 4 buckshot for defending myself in my house from 2 legged critters.

anyways, gunblast usually seems down to earth, am I missing something here?


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Old 10-02-2012, 17:48   #2
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There was a thread about this awhile back. The only way I support it is with:


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Old 10-02-2012, 18:13   #3
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The only way I support it is with:
Or wax slugs. Birdshot is still better than nothing though, just aim for the head.
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Old 10-02-2012, 18:29   #4
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There was a thread about this awhile back. The only way I support it is with:


The lost art of "Cut Shells" - YouTube

Saw that before. interesting stuff, I think I'll stick with the 00 buck myself. If I want to reach 25-70 yards I'll just use a 1 oz slug with highbrass.
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Old 10-02-2012, 18:53   #5
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Saw that before. interesting stuff, I think I'll stick with the 00 buck myself. If I want to reach 25-70 yards I'll just use a 1 oz slug with highbrass.
Also, just imagine how bad that could jam up the works on a pump or auto if it broke in half while cycling.
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Old 10-03-2012, 15:23   #6
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Also, just imagine how bad that could jam up the works on a pump or auto if it broke in half while cycling.
Cut shells are meant for single shot or a double barrel.

They are old school slugs, basically. No need to do it with todays slug shells.

I vote for the 00 buck myself.
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Old 10-02-2012, 18:33   #7
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The first shooting I went to on the job involved 1 guy shooting another using a 20 ga single shot with #6 low brass. Distance was about 15 ft. Check the distances in your home as far as room sizes. The guy was hit just below the ribs in the xyphoid. Cut a jagged hole about the size of a golf ball. Wad was inside him. Found shot next to the spine. DRT. Since then been to several hunting accidents involving bird shot. It kills dead and quick at close range, distances the inside of most homes.
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Old 10-02-2012, 19:04   #8
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The first shooting I went to on the job involved 1 guy shooting another using a 20 ga single shot with #6 low brass. Distance was about 15 ft. Check the distances in your home as far as room sizes. The guy was hit just below the ribs in the xyphoid. Cut a jagged hole about the size of a golf ball. Wad was inside him. Found shot next to the spine. DRT. Since then been to several hunting accidents involving bird shot. It kills dead and quick at close range, distances the inside of most homes.
Understandable if you were defending yourself and had a full frontal shot of your attacker/home invader. What about if all you have is a side shot? What if he's taking cover behind your couch and about to throw rounds down range toward you? Then all of a sudden it seems the camp of "limited penetration for liability issues" becomes moot, since the bad guy may be using something that goes through multiple walls, etc.


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Also, just imagine how bad that could jam up the works on a pump or auto if it broke in half while cycling.
Absolutely. I want tried and true if my life depends on it.
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Old 10-02-2012, 19:54   #9
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Understandable if you were defending yourself and had a full frontal shot of your attacker/home invader. What about if all you have is a side shot? What if he's taking cover behind your couch and about to throw rounds down range toward you? Then all of a sudden it seems the camp of "limited penetration for liability issues" becomes moot, since the bad guy may be using something that goes through multiple walls, etc.
Using your scenario of "what ifs", what if the BG was hiding behind the refrigerator, what if there was a cinder block wall, what if, what if, what if. The world is full of 'what ifs'. I can tell one thing from having BTDT-wore out the t-shirt. No matter what gun you have when it hits the fan you quickly realize 1) yours isn't big enough, 2) you are sure you don't have enough ammo, and 3) the bad guy's gun seems a lot bigger than yours.
My point was don't underestimate bird shot. It will kill you just as dead as a slug and you won't be able to tell the difference. It's not a load I would recommend but I've read too many internet commandos on here and other forums that don't have a clue just how quickly dead bird shot will kill someone.
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Old 10-03-2012, 07:04   #10
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Using your scenario of "what ifs", what if the BG was hiding behind the refrigerator, what if there was a cinder block wall, what if, what if, what if. The world is full of 'what ifs'. I can tell one thing from having BTDT-wore out the t-shirt. No matter what gun you have when it hits the fan you quickly realize 1) yours isn't big enough, 2) you are sure you don't have enough ammo, and 3) the bad guy's gun seems a lot bigger than yours.
My point was don't underestimate bird shot. It will kill you just as dead as a slug and you won't be able to tell the difference. It's not a load I would recommend but I've read too many internet commandos on here and other forums that don't have a clue just how quickly dead bird shot will kill someone.
Last I checked, unless you spend a few minutes lugging my beast of a fridge out from inside the wall, no one will be hiding behind it. Maybe in it, but then they got bigger problems

My house doesn't have any cinder block walls, so that's fine.

That's fine, I understand birdshot MAY stop a fight in a timely fashion. But if you have the chance to prepare before hand, why not use something a bit more efficient? like #4 or 00? Better to over penetrate slightly, than to under penetrate slightly and not hit any vitals, keeping the BG going.

Sorry if I came off as "birdshot is useless". It's not, but there is better options out there, and that I don't think is disputable....
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Old 10-03-2012, 20:23   #11
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Sorry if I came off as "birdshot is useless". It's not, but there is better options out there, and that I don't think is disputable....
I haven't read anyone here yet advocating using birdshot over other loads. However, sometimes you have to dance with the girl you bring. In a perfect world you can load this or that and carry a particular firearm. However, I know from experience that this isn't a perfect world and when it hits the fan you have to use what you have at that time. The point of this entire thread is that birdshot will definitely do more damage than some of the uninformed actually realize. Until you have seen the damage then don't discount it doing the job in certain circumstances. That birdshot load may be the only fat girl left at the dance. You may prefer the long haired blonde but she may not be there when the music starts.
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Old 10-02-2012, 21:14   #12
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The first shooting I went to on the job involved 1 guy shooting another using a 20 ga single shot with #6 low brass. Distance was about 15 ft. Check the distances in your home as far as room sizes. The guy was hit just below the ribs in the xyphoid. Cut a jagged hole about the size of a golf ball. Wad was inside him. Found shot next to the spine. DRT. Since then been to several hunting accidents involving bird shot. It kills dead and quick at close range, distances the inside of most homes.
Agreed my experience in EMS and Trauma Centers tells me that from room distances birdshot will make a nice rathole wound. Even in the coldest of weather with thick clothing.
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Old 10-02-2012, 21:49   #13
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Next time some guy breaks into my house dressed like a bird I'll be sure and use some bird shot.
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Old 10-02-2012, 22:46   #14
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Next time some guy breaks into my house dressed like a bird I'll be sure and use some bird shot.
so true

Anybody endorsing birdshot for a self-defense load, well no comments.

For every person or story about who died from birdshot and the what-if game. I rather use what's known to work.

here's one story of a survivor

http://www.postbulletin.com/news/sto...php?id=1510186


here's a story of one who didn't

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa...dent-shot.html


One was shot in the head by his own SG at muzzle contact or just about.

See the diference?

Now what you really depend on a Shotgun for self-defense?

But who knows, what-if a swarm of birds suddenly attack, than I guess you will be pretty well armed with a shotgun loaded with birdshot
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Old 10-05-2012, 09:12   #15
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Agreed my experience in EMS and Trauma Centers tells me that from room distances birdshot will make a nice rathole wound. Even in the coldest of weather with thick clothing.
But does it work better than 0, 00, or #4 at close ranges?

I don't think that there is a whole lot of argument that these other loads work better than #7-1/2 or #8 under other conditions.

So bird shot may work well under certain conditions, but other loads work better under a wider variety of conditions.

Of course all bets are off for .410 birdshot in a handgun where there is wide dispersion, and little penetration, even at room distances.
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Old 10-07-2012, 14:04   #16
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But does it work better than 0, 00, or #4 at close ranges?

I don't think that there is a whole lot of argument that these other loads work better than #7-1/2 or #8 under other conditions.

So bird shot may work well under certain conditions, but other loads work better under a wider variety of conditions.

Of course all bets are off for .410 birdshot in a handgun where there is wide dispersion, and little penetration, even at room distances.
I'm not saying that one should use birdshot over buck or vice versa. What I am saying is I have seen several people who were shot by accident with birdshot form >20ft who were hurt very bad. Of the 3 I have seen who were shot from <15ft in a defense situation with birdshot all three died in the trauma bay. Just saying
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Old 10-07-2012, 14:24   #17
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I'm not saying that one should use birdshot over buck or vice versa. What I am saying is I have seen several people who were shot by accident with birdshot form >20ft who were hurt very bad. Of the 3 I have seen who were shot from <15ft in a defense situation with birdshot all three died in the trauma bay. Just saying
Death doesn't mean the round was properly effective, believe it or not.
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Old 10-08-2012, 08:56   #18
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I'm not saying that one should use birdshot over buck or vice versa. What I am saying is I have seen several people who were shot by accident with birdshot form >20ft who were hurt very bad. Of the 3 I have seen who were shot from <15ft in a defense situation with birdshot all three died in the trauma bay. Just saying
During college I worked at a doc's office (pulmonary). I did a chest x-ray of a fairly large guy (probably 6'-4"; 280#) who was getting a Tn-DVR exam (disability). I developed the CXR (back then we used tanks to develop the film), between developer and fixer, I'd usually make a quick check of the film with a darkroom light. I thought a film had been splattered with fixer. After fully processing the film, and looking at it on the light-box, it was apparent that he had been shot (twice) with birdshot - the lateral films showed that one set of shot was in the front and the other was in the back - both with little penetration.

I asked that pt about it - he said it was from a shotgun - from two separate incidents.

I asked why the ER didn't remove the shot, he said something to the effect of - he didn't go to the ER (either time) because it wasn't "in his best interest at the time".
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Old 10-09-2012, 12:06   #19
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I'm not saying that one should use birdshot over buck or vice versa. What I am saying is I have seen several people who were shot by accident with birdshot form >20ft who were hurt very bad. Of the 3 I have seen who were shot from <15ft in a defense situation with birdshot all three died in the trauma bay. Just saying
More than likely that was w/ some choke, it matters. Avg shot spread for riot chokes, 1"/yard or 6"-7" @ 20ft. Unless the shot is heavy & the hit on an unobsturcted area, like the throat/face, it's not likely to hit anything vital. A denim jacket would slow the shot enough, add a layer of muscle/fat, the BG is just gonna be pissed off. Geeze, I have had wet pheasent not drop from a solid hit w/ #6 @ 60ft from a mod choke. Doesn' give me confidence in birdhsot of any flavor for serious SD.
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Old 10-02-2012, 19:33   #20
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Absolutely. I want tried and true if my life depends on it.
F'rill. I won't even try it until I get a single shot or pump gun. Guess it's one of those "in a pinch" things. Just be careful on how you cut them.
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