[cajun_chooter]

ever since the Martin shooting in Florida... cops will be trying to deter anyone from carrying.. nuf said

Moderator Note: I moved this discussion to its own thread so as not to derail Arrested, prosecuted for incidental exposure.

Lets center it around the FL AG's opinion. Link to commentary on that is in Posts #5 and #8.

[LApm9]

Louisiana law keys on carrying "in a manner to alarm the public".

Even if one thinks this is a poor legal description, it is a good guide line to use when selecting one's own mode of carry.

This definition would protect (though not perfectly) me from being picked up due to a printing noticeable only by a trained eye. It would also give some protection to Safepacker and fanny pack rigs.

[rvrctyrngr]

Originally Posted by cajun_chooter

ever since the Martin shooting in Florida... cops will be trying to deter anyone from carrying.. nuf said

Funny thing is...up to this point, the police are the only ones who got that one right.

[MAC702]

Originally Posted by cajun_chooter

ever since the Martin shooting in Florida... cops will be trying to deter anyone from carrying.. nuf said

How much you wanna bet TM would be alive today if Z had been openly carrying?

[StogieC]

Originally Posted by MAC702

How much you wanna bet TM would be alive today if Z had been openly carrying?

Interesting that you live in Clark County NV. and say this. TM might be alive but Z may have been shot like Erik Scott was in Clark County if our Attorney General's Office wins another important case that is now before the FL Supreme Court.

Mackey v. State

Jeff Knox lays is out at:
http://www.allnineyards.com/2012/10/.../#comment-1007

[MAC702]

Originally Posted by StogieC

... shot like Erik Scott was in Clark County...

Erik Scott was carrying concealed and got made. This is extremely different than openly carrying.

I am by no means excusing his murder caused by Costco management and the police.

[Bruce M]

Originally Posted by MAC702

Erik Scott was carrying concealed and got made. This is extremely different than openly carrying.

I am by no means excusing his murder caused by Costco management and the police.

If we are going to assign blame as to his death, let's not forget that Mr. Scott had a high level of morphine in his system and reached for his gun when he was stopped by the police. I wonder how many other people LVMPD contacted that day and other days that do not reach for guns while they are high on morphine do not get shot.

[MAC702]

Originally Posted by Bruce M

...Mr. Scott ... reached for his gun when he was stopped by the police.....

It is not my intention to hijack this thread, but if you are going to bring this up, then clarification is in order.

Mr Scott did not have a gun in his hand. One of the police officers yelled at him to drop his gun. It's awfully hard to drop it until you reach for it.

Mistakes were made on all sides. The shoot was a bad one.

[Bruce M]

Originally Posted by MAC702

It is not my intention to hijack this thread, but if you are going to bring this up, then clarification is in order.

Mr Scott did not have a gun in his hand. One of the police officers yelled at him to drop his gun. It's awfully hard to drop it until you reach for it.

Mistakes were made on all sides. The shoot was a bad one.

Out of curiosity was there an investigation? An inquest?

[JuneyBooney]

Originally Posted by MAC702

How much you wanna bet TM would be alive today if Z had been openly carrying?

Probably true.

[James Dean]

I get something different out of this. I think the AG is trying to protect the police by saying its okay to stop and ask questions if you see someone with a gun. Is it wrong? I don't know. Time will tell. Sometimes a little corporation goes along way, as well as a little *** kissing at a traffic stop.

[Chris Chris]

Originally Posted by James Dean

I get something different out of this. I think the AG is trying to protect the police by saying its okay to stop and ask questions if you see someone with a gun. Is it wrong? I don't know. Time will tell. Sometimes a little corporation goes along way, as well as a little *** kissing at a traffic stop.

Excellent point. In Florida (and elsewhere) the only difference between commiting the CRIME of illegally carry a concealed weapon, and being in complete accordance with the law and thus LEGALLY carrying a concealed weapon, is that little plastic card the State issues to the carrier.

The LEO doesn't know which case he is dealing with until they see the 'card'. A LEO should have the right to ask to see the card. And... a lawful CCW carrier should have no problem politely showing it to them.

I think anyone who has spent time in the LE profession can understand that. And, I would also think that any lawful carrier would prefer that those carrying concealed handguns be the same law-abiding and properly licensed citizen that they are.

The only way to find out is to see the 'card'.

[MAC702]

Originally Posted by Chris Chris

...The LEO doesn't know which case he is dealing with until they see the 'card'. A LEO should have the right to ask to see the card. And... a lawful CCW carrier should have no problem politely showing it to them...

Change that to a driver's license, and tell me you're still okay with it.

[Chris Chris]

Originally Posted by MAC702

Change that to a driver's license, and tell me you're still okay with it.

The subject under discussion (and which you quoted an excerpt from my post) dealt with whether the subject of the LEOs attention was legally or illegally carrying a concealed weapon. The CCW permit is the instant answer to the LEOs question.

A DL has no bearing on that situation and is meaningless... unless of course, the subject in question is inside a motor vehicle... then it still has no bearing on the legality of carry - only whether the motor vehicle is being operated by one allowed to do so.

I would be just fine with the LEO asking a vehicle driver for their DL, as I am with a LEO asking a CC for their carry permit.

[Dragoon44]

Originally Posted by James Dean

I get something different out of this. I think the AG is trying to protect the police by saying its okay to stop and ask questions if you see someone with a gun. Is it wrong? I don't know. Time will tell. Sometimes a little corporation goes along way, as well as a little *** kissing at a traffic stop.

You re mostly right. the author of the article has blown the thing way out of proportion. Bondi's statements were part of a legal brief in a case before the Florida Supreme Court not directive for policy for LEO (Which the Florida AG has no authority to do anyway.)

[redbaron007]

Originally Posted by Dragoon44

One thing to bear in mind about whatever the Florida AG has to say.

The FLorida AG has opinions and that is all. unlike many other states the Fl AG has no authority whatsoever over Fl LE agencies and cannot dictate policies for LE.

The Ag's role in Fl is strictly advisory with no legal weight behind the advisory.

Originally Posted by Dragoon44

You re mostly right. the author of the article has blown the thing way out of proportion. Bondi's statements were part of a legal brief in a case before the Florida Supreme Court not directive for policy for LEO (Which the Florida AG has no authority to do anyway.)

But even in an advisory capacity, could not those LEA choose to follow his advisory...especially if they are somewhat anti-gun? It may not provide 100% cover, but through litigation, they could say they were following the advice of the AG; thus potentially releasing them from violating ones right?

IMHO, problem is, if the case is upheld, it creates bad case law. Hence, why the Florida Open Carry filed their brief.

It reminds me of the cliche': Guilty till proven innocent.

This brings back another conversation recently discussed. I know a LEO in my area who makes it a point to tell people 'if you don't tell my you have a firearm concealed; you will spend time in cuffs and the back seat/station until "I" figure it out. It could take hours.' Our state is not required disclosure state.



red

[Chris Chris]

Originally Posted by redbaron007

But even in an advisory capacity, could not those LEA choose to follow his advisory...especially if they are somewhat anti-gun? It may not provide 100% cover, but through litigation, they could say they were following the advice of the AG; thus potentially releasing them from violating ones right?

IMHO, problem is, if the case is upheld, it creates bad case law. Hence, why the Florida Open Carry filed their brief.

It reminds me of the cliche': Guilty till proven innocent.

This brings back another conversation recently discussed. I know a LEO in my area who makes it a point to tell people 'if you don't tell my you have a firearm concealed; you will spend time in cuffs and the back seat/station until "I" figure it out. It could take hours.' Our state is not required disclosure state.



red

And... JMHO... what is wrong with simply telling the officer " I have a concealed handgun and a permit, and how do you wish me to procede?"... whether your state law requires it or not? It does prevent a sudden surprise to the LEO (when I was in that line of work we figured "The best surprise was no surprise.") and seems like a reasonable thing to do if you are facing a LEO.

Do that, and the incident RE: concealed handgun is over.

Why not simply do that? It certainly is a lot easier than being a totally assertive jerk & and a rampaging fool who wishes to argue for the sake of making a point on YouTube (which, a careful observer might rename the Stupid/Tube). Arguing about a concealed gun with a LEO in a street interview is about as STUPID as you can get! Just tell them up front, and the problem is solved.

[Bruce M]

Originally Posted by cajun_chooter

ever since the Martin shooting in Florida... cops will be trying to deter anyone from carrying.. nuf said

Really? Where have officers gone on record saying no one should carry? I keep reading things like this on the internet and yet, oddly, I never seem to hear anything like it in real life.

[Bruce M]

The arrest in question involved a guy with previous arrests (convicted felon) leaning on a fence with grip of the gun sticking out of his pocket (pocket carry - another thread) in a drug hole. I am uncertain what the AG's position is, although admittedly it seems messed up based on the title. But the incident in question sounds like solid Constitutional police work to me.

[John Rambo]

Strange, any time I've told a cop I was carrying when it came up in conversation they didn't even bat an eye.

Whats that phrase again...tot...totall....totally...circumstances? Pam Bondi is an idiot. Pam Bondi is also not a police officer and our police officers (as long as you stay away from the Southeastern seaboard and out of St Petersburg/Clearwater) are not generally idiots.

[Gun Shark]

Originally Posted by John Rambo

Strange, any time I've told a cop I was carrying when it came up in conversation they didn't even bat an eye.

Whats that phrase again...tot...totall....totally...circumstances? Pam Bondi is an idiot. Pam Bondi is also not a police officer and our police officers (as long as you stay away from the Southeastern seaboard and out of St Petersburg/Clearwater) are not generally idiots.

I don't know about you, but I have had pretty good experiences regarding LEO's up and down the east coast, whether it's in Florida or not. I have had only one LEO encounter when I was armed(I stopped at a traffic accident) and he said "Thanks for telling me, just don't draw that ****"

Please tell me how the cops on the South Eastern seaboard are idiots.

[fuzzy03cls]

Depends heavily on your location within Florida. I've had traffic stops where the officer didn't even ask me if I had a weapon. And then I know people that have been dragged out of the car & cuffed for LEGALLY carrying concealed while they were in a bad area or late at night.
No duty to inform in FL so I shut my mouth.

[redbaron007]

Maybe we should assume 95% politicians are cheats and they should be arrested/investigated to prove they are not.

The AG is stretching and reaching for anything to develop reasonable suspicion.

Sounds like a bureaucratic government leach....trying to get more power for the gubbermit!




red

[Dragoon44]

One thing to bear in mind about whatever the Florida AG has to say.

The FLorida AG has opinions and that is all. unlike many other states the Fl AG has no authority whatsoever over Fl LE agencies and cannot dictate policies for LE.

The Ag's role in Fl is strictly advisory with no legal weight behind the advisory.

[Chris Chris]

The FL CCW permit is legal authorization granted to the permit holder by the State of Florida to carry a concealed weapon in the manner proscribed by FL law.

If the CCW holder is doing that in accordance with the law, then politely answering an officer's questions and producing the permit should end the matter. It's up to the permit holder to obey the laws under which the permit was issued, and not be a complete flaming jerk should an officer see what they view as a suspicious bulge under the permit holder's clothing and decide to investigate.

An officer who does choose to investigate a 'suspicious bulge' is understandably concerned about a possible crime, and about their personal safety. A little common sense and common courtesy on the CCW's part can defuse just about any such situation.

Becoming antagonistic and loudly arguing your 2nd Ammendment rights while an officer is trying to decide if he is dealing with an armed felon is rather stupid.

The Bondi opinion may presume a felony, but my CCW permit clearly states otherwise to any officer I am contacted by, once I politely show him my permit. That is the point you want to get to quickly, and without drama, in any officer initiated contact.