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Old 10-07-2012, 09:46   #1
cajun_chooter
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Florida AG Says Carrying a Gun is Always Presumably a Crime

ever since the Martin shooting in Florida... cops will be trying to deter anyone from carrying.. nuf said

Moderator Note: I moved this discussion to its own thread so as not to derail Arrested, prosecuted for incidental exposure.

Lets center it around the FL AG's opinion. Link to commentary on that is in Posts #5 and #8.

Last edited by RussP; 10-08-2012 at 07:38..
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Old 10-07-2012, 11:34   #2
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Louisiana law keys on carrying "in a manner to alarm the public".

Even if one thinks this is a poor legal description, it is a good guide line to use when selecting one's own mode of carry.

This definition would protect (though not perfectly) me from being picked up due to a printing noticeable only by a trained eye. It would also give some protection to Safepacker and fanny pack rigs.
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Old 10-07-2012, 15:49   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cajun_chooter View Post
ever since the Martin shooting in Florida... cops will be trying to deter anyone from carrying.. nuf said
Funny thing is...up to this point, the police are the only ones who got that one right.
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Old 10-07-2012, 21:44   #4
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Originally Posted by cajun_chooter View Post
ever since the Martin shooting in Florida... cops will be trying to deter anyone from carrying.. nuf said
How much you wanna bet TM would be alive today if Z had been openly carrying?
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Old 10-07-2012, 22:01   #5
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Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
How much you wanna bet TM would be alive today if Z had been openly carrying?
Interesting that you live in Clark County NV. and say this. TM might be alive but Z may have been shot like Erik Scott was in Clark County if our Attorney General's Office wins another important case that is now before the FL Supreme Court.

Mackey v. State

Jeff Knox lays is out at:
http://www.allnineyards.com/2012/10/.../#comment-1007
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Old 10-07-2012, 23:18   #6
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... shot like Erik Scott was in Clark County...
Erik Scott was carrying concealed and got made. This is extremely different than openly carrying.

I am by no means excusing his murder caused by Costco management and the police.
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Old 10-08-2012, 07:49   #7
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Erik Scott was carrying concealed and got made. This is extremely different than openly carrying.

I am by no means excusing his murder caused by Costco management and the police.

If we are going to assign blame as to his death, let's not forget that Mr. Scott had a high level of morphine in his system and reached for his gun when he was stopped by the police. I wonder how many other people LVMPD contacted that day and other days that do not reach for guns while they are high on morphine do not get shot.
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Old 10-08-2012, 15:54   #8
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...Mr. Scott ... reached for his gun when he was stopped by the police.....
It is not my intention to hijack this thread, but if you are going to bring this up, then clarification is in order.

Mr Scott did not have a gun in his hand. One of the police officers yelled at him to drop his gun. It's awfully hard to drop it until you reach for it.

Mistakes were made on all sides. The shoot was a bad one.
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Old 10-08-2012, 17:54   #9
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It is not my intention to hijack this thread, but if you are going to bring this up, then clarification is in order.

Mr Scott did not have a gun in his hand. One of the police officers yelled at him to drop his gun. It's awfully hard to drop it until you reach for it.

Mistakes were made on all sides. The shoot was a bad one.

Out of curiosity was there an investigation? An inquest?
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Old 10-08-2012, 20:43   #10
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How much you wanna bet TM would be alive today if Z had been openly carrying?
Probably true.
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Old 10-09-2012, 09:19   #11
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I get something different out of this. I think the AG is trying to protect the police by saying its okay to stop and ask questions if you see someone with a gun. Is it wrong? I don't know. Time will tell. Sometimes a little corporation goes along way, as well as a little *** kissing at a traffic stop.
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Old 10-09-2012, 10:16   #12
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I get something different out of this. I think the AG is trying to protect the police by saying its okay to stop and ask questions if you see someone with a gun. Is it wrong? I don't know. Time will tell. Sometimes a little corporation goes along way, as well as a little *** kissing at a traffic stop.
Excellent point. In Florida (and elsewhere) the only difference between commiting the CRIME of illegally carry a concealed weapon, and being in complete accordance with the law and thus LEGALLY carrying a concealed weapon, is that little plastic card the State issues to the carrier.

The LEO doesn't know which case he is dealing with until they see the 'card'. A LEO should have the right to ask to see the card. And... a lawful CCW carrier should have no problem politely showing it to them.

I think anyone who has spent time in the LE profession can understand that. And, I would also think that any lawful carrier would prefer that those carrying concealed handguns be the same law-abiding and properly licensed citizen that they are.

The only way to find out is to see the 'card'.
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Old 10-10-2012, 19:30   #13
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...The LEO doesn't know which case he is dealing with until they see the 'card'. A LEO should have the right to ask to see the card. And... a lawful CCW carrier should have no problem politely showing it to them...
Change that to a driver's license, and tell me you're still okay with it.
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Old 10-11-2012, 05:27   #14
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Change that to a driver's license, and tell me you're still okay with it.
The subject under discussion (and which you quoted an excerpt from my post) dealt with whether the subject of the LEOs attention was legally or illegally carrying a concealed weapon. The CCW permit is the instant answer to the LEOs question.

A DL has no bearing on that situation and is meaningless... unless of course, the subject in question is inside a motor vehicle... then it still has no bearing on the legality of carry - only whether the motor vehicle is being operated by one allowed to do so.

I would be just fine with the LEO asking a vehicle driver for their DL, as I am with a LEO asking a CC for their carry permit.
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Old 10-09-2012, 10:29   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Dean View Post
I get something different out of this. I think the AG is trying to protect the police by saying its okay to stop and ask questions if you see someone with a gun. Is it wrong? I don't know. Time will tell. Sometimes a little corporation goes along way, as well as a little *** kissing at a traffic stop.
You re mostly right. the author of the article has blown the thing way out of proportion. Bondi's statements were part of a legal brief in a case before the Florida Supreme Court not directive for policy for LEO (Which the Florida AG has no authority to do anyway.)
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Old 10-09-2012, 15:15   #16
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One thing to bear in mind about whatever the Florida AG has to say.

The FLorida AG has opinions and that is all. unlike many other states the Fl AG has no authority whatsoever over Fl LE agencies and cannot dictate policies for LE.

The Ag's role in Fl is strictly advisory with no legal weight behind the advisory.
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You re mostly right. the author of the article has blown the thing way out of proportion. Bondi's statements were part of a legal brief in a case before the Florida Supreme Court not directive for policy for LEO (Which the Florida AG has no authority to do anyway.)
But even in an advisory capacity, could not those LEA choose to follow his advisory...especially if they are somewhat anti-gun? It may not provide 100% cover, but through litigation, they could say they were following the advice of the AG; thus potentially releasing them from violating ones right?

IMHO, problem is, if the case is upheld, it creates bad case law. Hence, why the Florida Open Carry filed their brief.

It reminds me of the cliche': Guilty till proven innocent.

This brings back another conversation recently discussed. I know a LEO in my area who makes it a point to tell people 'if you don't tell my you have a firearm concealed; you will spend time in cuffs and the back seat/station until "I" figure it out. It could take hours.' Our state is not required disclosure state.



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Old 10-09-2012, 15:44   #17
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But even in an advisory capacity, could not those LEA choose to follow his advisory...especially if they are somewhat anti-gun? It may not provide 100% cover, but through litigation, they could say they were following the advice of the AG; thus potentially releasing them from violating ones right?

IMHO, problem is, if the case is upheld, it creates bad case law. Hence, why the Florida Open Carry filed their brief.

It reminds me of the cliche': Guilty till proven innocent.

This brings back another conversation recently discussed. I know a LEO in my area who makes it a point to tell people 'if you don't tell my you have a firearm concealed; you will spend time in cuffs and the back seat/station until "I" figure it out. It could take hours.' Our state is not required disclosure state.



red

And... JMHO... what is wrong with simply telling the officer " I have a concealed handgun and a permit, and how do you wish me to procede?"... whether your state law requires it or not? It does prevent a sudden surprise to the LEO (when I was in that line of work we figured "The best surprise was no surprise.") and seems like a reasonable thing to do if you are facing a LEO.

Do that, and the incident RE: concealed handgun is over.

Why not simply do that? It certainly is a lot easier than being a totally assertive jerk & and a rampaging fool who wishes to argue for the sake of making a point on YouTube (which, a careful observer might rename the Stupid/Tube). Arguing about a concealed gun with a LEO in a street interview is about as STUPID as you can get! Just tell them up front, and the problem is solved.
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Old 10-08-2012, 07:11   #18
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Originally Posted by cajun_chooter View Post
ever since the Martin shooting in Florida... cops will be trying to deter anyone from carrying.. nuf said
Really? Where have officers gone on record saying no one should carry? I keep reading things like this on the internet and yet, oddly, I never seem to hear anything like it in real life.
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Old 10-08-2012, 07:46   #19
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The arrest in question involved a guy with previous arrests (convicted felon) leaning on a fence with grip of the gun sticking out of his pocket (pocket carry - another thread) in a drug hole. I am uncertain what the AG's position is, although admittedly it seems messed up based on the title. But the incident in question sounds like solid Constitutional police work to me.
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Old 10-08-2012, 07:51   #20
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Strange, any time I've told a cop I was carrying when it came up in conversation they didn't even bat an eye.

Whats that phrase again...tot...totall....totally...circumstances? Pam Bondi is an idiot. Pam Bondi is also not a police officer and our police officers (as long as you stay away from the Southeastern seaboard and out of St Petersburg/Clearwater) are not generally idiots.

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