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Old 10-09-2012, 13:41   #1
Yankee2718
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Observations from Tnoutdoors9 Test

If you watch his videos you can start to pick up on certain trends. I notice bullets that achieve >1000 fps seem to cause more internal damage than bullets that achieve <1000 fps. The slower bullets seem to just punch a straight path and not "churn" up the gel.

Some of the Underwood Ammo 10mm offerings in the 1500-1600 fps range produce a damage path that looks similar (not the same) to a .223 damage path.

I think that velocity and bullet construction is playing a bigger role in the wounding abilities of these bullets than the actual size of the bullet.

Categories.

115 grain+ weighted bullets >1250 fps

115 grain+ weighted bullets >1400 fps

124 grain+ weighted bullets >1200 fps

124 grain+ weighted bullets >1250 fps

165 grain+ weighted bullets >1000 fps

200 grain+ weighted bullets > 850 fps



Each individual category has some tradeoffs.
115 grain+ weighted bullets >1400fps produce a large damage path but also produce shallow penetration.
124 grain+ weighted bullets >1200 fps offer a balanced mix of large damage path and adequate penetration.
165 grain+ weighted bullets >1000 fps create adequate penetration, but not always a large damage path.

200 grain+ weighted bullets >850 fps penetrate deeply, but do not produce a large damage path.

In regards to 155 and 165 grain bullets traveling >1150 fps, I don't have enough data to make any meaningful observations.

With the data produced by tnoutdoors9, I can make a few hypotheses:

The best all-around performers based on the data available, appear to be 124 grain+ weighted bullets >1200 fps and 165 grain+ weighted bullets >1000 fps.

This could change with additional testing of 155 grain bullets traveling at 1300/1400 fps, 165 grain bullets traveling at 1200/1300 fps, and 180 grain bullets traveling 1100-1300 fps.

Testing of the Underwood .45 ACP 185 grain GDHP at 1200 fps and 230 grain GDHP at 1000 fps would be interesting and are necessary missing data points.

The only conclusion I can draw from the current data points is that 1000 +/- 25 fps seems to be a threshold for creating a damage path. Bullets moving slower than 975 fps appear to mostly push straight through.

These are just my observations. These could also be meaningless as simulating actual live tissue is much different than a ballistic medium.

Last edited by Yankee2718; 10-09-2012 at 13:48..
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Old 10-09-2012, 13:57   #2
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I like mid-weight, fast, bullets personally, at least in 9mm. I do think energy is a factor.

That said, pistol bullets at these velocities simply do not create damage from the temporary cavity. Only tissue that is physically touched by the bullet is permanently damaged. .357 Sig consistently produces the most impressive permanent cavities, especially in overall length of the large permanent cavity (typically around 7 inches).

This is a good read:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm

Last edited by cowboy1964; 10-09-2012 at 14:06..
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Old 10-09-2012, 14:16   #3
Yankee2718
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cowboy1964 View Post
I like mid-weight, fast, bullets personally, at least in 9mm. I do think energy is a factor.

That said, pistol bullets at these velocities simply do not create damage from the temporary cavity. Only tissue that is physically touched by the bullet is permanently damaged. .357 Sig consistently produces the most impressive permanent cavities, especially in overall length of the large permanent cavity (typically around 7 inches).

This is a good read:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm
The damage to the gel is what I am basing my observations on. I'm not even jumping into the ballistic pressure wave game.
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Old 10-09-2012, 14:51   #4
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Originally Posted by Yankee2718 View Post
The damage to the gel is what I am basing my observations on. I'm not even jumping into the ballistic pressure wave game.
The gel damage, or "churning" as you put it, is an indicator of temporary stretch cavity. Now this is a long-running debate on here as to whether it has any impact on incapacitation by being strong enough to actually tear organs not specifically touched by the bullet itself. I dunno personally......I'm on the fence. Always have liked a "dynamic" bullet, but some of these newer bullet designs like HST don't need a screaming velocity to perform as far as expansion and penetration are concerned.

The ballistic pressure wave is more concerning "shock" to the CNS or cardiovascular system from a wave of pressure.

Frankly I'd put more likelihood of actually occuring on the temporary stretch cavity causing additional damage than I would the ballistic pressure wave slapping someone down.
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Old 10-09-2012, 16:06   #5
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Frankly I'd put more likelihood of actually occuring on the temporary stretch cavity causing additional damage than I would the ballistic pressure wave slapping someone down.
These two things you mention go hand in hand.
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Old 10-09-2012, 16:51   #6
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These two things you mention go hand in hand.
I think the first one is at least *possible* with handgun rounds, the BPW probably not unless we start talking about the next level, i.e. rifles.
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Last edited by ABNAK; 10-09-2012 at 16:51..
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Old 10-09-2012, 16:08   #7
uz2bUSMC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cowboy1964 View Post
I like mid-weight, fast, bullets personally, at least in 9mm. I do think energy is a factor.

That said, pistol bullets at these velocities simply do not create damage from the temporary cavity. Only tissue that is physically touched by the bullet is permanently damaged. .357 Sig consistently produces the most impressive permanent cavities, especially in overall length of the large permanent cavity (typically around 7 inches).

This is a good read:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm
You post those links so much you must be sold on the koolaid, very, very old koolaid at that.
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Old 10-09-2012, 16:02   #8
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Where the gel has been "churned" that indicates damage. In a scientific format, that equals more damage.
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Old 10-09-2012, 17:19   #9
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I'm a fan of accuracy, speed, and penetration. This is my reason for going with a 155gr XTP handloaded in a 40S&W. The 155XTP has good velocity (1150-1200fps depending on load), it expands (not as much as some), and you get stellar penetration. I'm also getting more consistent, and excellent accuracy from my handloaded 155XTP's @ 1150fps (haven't tried higher velocity YET) than any other store bought whiz bang round that you can get at your LGS. TnOutDoors has tested the XTP bullet in GEL using the Hornady TAP load, and it performed impressively based on the criteria I look for in a handgun cartridge.

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Old 10-10-2012, 07:48   #10
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Originally Posted by PrecisionRifleman View Post
I'm a fan of accuracy, speed, and penetration. This is my reason for going with a 155gr XTP handloaded in a 40S&W. The 155XTP has good velocity (1150-1200fps depending on load), it expands (not as much as some), and you get stellar penetration. I'm also getting more consistent, and excellent accuracy from my handloaded 155XTP's @ 1150fps (haven't tried higher velocity YET) than any other store bought whiz bang round that you can get at your LGS. TnOutDoors has tested the XTP bullet in GEL using the Hornady TAP load, and it performed impressively based on the criteria I look for in a handgun cartridge.

Hornady TAP FPD .40 S&W 155 gr JHP SIM-TEST w/denim - YouTube
Nice, informative video.
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Old 10-11-2012, 18:44   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrecisionRifleman View Post
I'm a fan of accuracy, speed, and penetration. This is my reason for going with a 155gr XTP handloaded in a 40S&W. The 155XTP has good velocity (1150-1200fps depending on load), it expands (not as much as some), and you get stellar penetration. I'm also getting more consistent, and excellent accuracy from my handloaded 155XTP's @ 1150fps (haven't tried higher velocity YET) than any other store bought whiz bang round that you can get at your LGS. TnOutDoors has tested the XTP bullet in GEL using the Hornady TAP load, and it performed impressively based on the criteria I look for in a handgun cartridge.

Hornady TAP FPD .40 S&W 155 gr JHP SIM-TEST w/denim - YouTube
I would like to see the 10mm version of this bad boy tested. 155 grains at 1270 (as chronographed by doc).
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Old 10-12-2012, 06:07   #12
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I would like to see the 10mm version of this bad boy tested. 155 grains at 1270 (as chronographed by doc).
Yes. I agree. Seems like this load would hold up very well at higher speeds and being its a controlled/slow expansion, would probably get the best of both worlds.
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Old 10-12-2012, 12:18   #13
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Yes. I agree. Seems like this load would hold up very well at higher speeds and being its a controlled/slow expansion, would probably get the best of both worlds.
That's what I am thinking.

Great minds think alike!
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Old 10-12-2012, 13:49   #14
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I would like to see the 10mm version of this bad boy tested. 155 grains at 1270 (as chronographed by doc).
That must be one hard-hitting round!
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Old 10-12-2012, 15:51   #15
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That must be one hard-hitting round!
Hopefully TN will get around to it.
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Old 10-09-2012, 17:42   #16
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This coincides what ive been saying for years and have seen quite a bit first hand. The 357sig is the best handgun caliber on the planet, for all around self defense.

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Old 10-09-2012, 17:52   #17
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This coincides what ive been saying for years and have seen quite a bit first hand. The 357sig is the best handgun caliber on the planet, for all around self defense.
Yep... it's done a pretty good job of duplicating one .357 magnum load on the light end...

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Old 10-09-2012, 18:05   #18
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Yep... it's done a pretty good job of duplicating one .357 magnum load on the light end...

Well, that "light end" is where the legend of the .357 Magnum lives.
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Old 10-09-2012, 20:54   #19
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Well, that "light end" is where the legend of the .357 Magnum lives.
Or the only part of the legend you've payed attention to...

It's a very capable woods round as well with 158's or 180's. Has been since 1934.

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Old 10-09-2012, 21:27   #20
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Or the only part of the legend you've payed attention to...

It's a very capable woods round as well with 158's or 180's. Has been since 1934.

Caliber Corner
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