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Old 10-10-2012, 22:17   #1
DaBurna
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Anyone Carried in a Post Office?

I know it's a HUGE "NO-NO!!" I had someone admit to me he did accidentally as he was out running errands and such... He got to the counter to buy a book of stamps... Then it hit him as he went to get the money out of his pocket.... An LCP!!!

He played it off and no one notices. Needless to say the SCARE of his life....I told him "U dodged a bullet today dude!!"

I told him "LESSON LEARNED" stop, think, and read signs! In addition OBEY FEDERAL LAW!! I liken his experience to a kid cutting the tag off a pillow or mattress!

Be careful & stay vigilant fellas!!
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Old 10-10-2012, 22:21   #2
Dalton Wayne
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Concealed is concealed

OH and IBTL
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Old 10-10-2012, 23:11   #3
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So how many stamps did you buy today?
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Old 10-10-2012, 23:41   #4
Dalton Wayne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitey1 View Post
So how many stamps did you buy today?
LOL none today Monday is the day I go to the PO
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Old 10-13-2012, 01:03   #5
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Originally Posted by Dalton Wayne View Post
Concealed is concealed

OH and IBTL
That is what I hear.

Now this case may be a good one in the long run..it is in Colorado and is called

Tab Bonidy et al Plaintiffs vs US Postal Service and is for handgun carry in the post offices. The only case law cited is a case where an employee of the postal service had a car parked on their property and was charged. So the above case will be good to watch. The gov just filed a couple of weeks ago for summary judgment.
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Old 10-11-2012, 03:08   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBurna View Post
I know it's a HUGE "NO-NO!!" I had someone admit to me he did accidentally as he was out running errands and such... He got to the counter to buy a book of stamps... Then it hit him as he went to get the money out of his pocket.... An LCP!!!

He played it off and no one notices. Needless to say the SCARE of his life....I told him "U dodged a bullet today dude!!"

I told him "LESSON LEARNED" stop, think, and read signs! In addition OBEY FEDERAL LAW!! I liken his experience to a kid cutting the tag off a pillow or mattress!

Be careful & stay vigilant fellas!!
Would you mind pointing out the federal law that was supposedly broken when he carried into the post office, please?

I'm curious.
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Old 10-11-2012, 03:10   #7
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I'll even spot you one but it does have an exception and if I'm not mistaken purchasing stamps is a legitimate purpose for going into a post office.

39 CFR 232.1:
(l) Weapons and explosives. No person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for official purposes.
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Old 10-11-2012, 05:58   #8
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Originally Posted by HerrGlock View Post
I'll even spot you one but it does have an exception and if I'm not mistaken purchasing stamps is a legitimate purpose for going into a post office.

39 CFR 232.1:
(l) Weapons and explosives. No person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for official purposes.

Any chance that there is a slight difference between the two words, legitimate and official?
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Old 10-11-2012, 06:07   #9
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I do. While inside the state I can carry anywhere except federal property. As pointed out the post office isn't federal property.
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Old 10-11-2012, 06:17   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce M View Post
Any chance that there is a slight difference between the two words, legitimate and official?
May be but if you're going into a post office for stamps, isn't that one of the official uses of a post office?

This one's going to get into the courts a few times before it's ironed out. Right now even the post office is posting horse feathers with some of the signs actually stating the US Code forbids carry there.
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Old 10-11-2012, 06:21   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HerrGlock View Post
May be but if you're going into a post office for stamps, isn't that one of the official uses of a post office?

This one's going to get into the courts a few times before it's ironed out. Right now even the post office is posting horse feathers with some of the signs actually stating the US Code forbids carry there.
I guess you could say that, but when I read it, I took "official" to mean LE.

Until it is clear, I don't think I will be carrying there anytime soon.
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Old 10-11-2012, 06:27   #12
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I guess you could say that, but when I read it, I took "official" to mean LE.

Until it is clear, I don't think I will be carrying there anytime soon.
Have at it. No one's talking about personal preference. Free country and all that.

The question in here is whether it's federally legal to carry in one.

There are some states that forbid it, those are black and white illegal to do so and not an issue.

I'm hoping someone can show me where it's federally illegal to do so.
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Old 10-11-2012, 06:59   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HerrGlock View Post
May be but if you're going into a post office for stamps, isn't that one of the official uses of a post office?

This one's going to get into the courts a few times before it's ironed out. Right now even the post office is posting horse feathers with some of the signs actually stating the US Code forbids carry there.
thats my post office big signs ..
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Old 10-11-2012, 07:05   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCC View Post
thats my post office big signs ..
http://uscode.house.gov/download/pls/39C4.txt

39 USC 410:
Quote:
410. Application of other laws

Release date: 2003-06-24

(a) Except as provided by subsection (b) of this section, and except as otherwise provided in this title or insofar as such laws remain in force as rules or regulations of the Postal Service, no Federal law dealing with public or Federal contracts, property, works, officers, employees, budgets, or funds, including the provisions of chapters 5 and 7 of title 5, shall apply to the exercise of the powers of the Postal Service.

(b) The following provisions shall apply to the Postal Service:

(1) section 552 (public information), section 552a (records about individuals), section 552b (open meetings), section 3102 (employment of personal assistants for blind, deaf, or otherwise handicapped employees), section 3110 (restrictions on employment of relatives), section 3333 and chapters 72 (antidiscrimination; right to petition Congress) and 73 (suitability, security, and conduct of employees), section 5520 (withholding city income or employment taxes), and section 5532 (dual pay) of title 5, except that no regulation issued under such chapters or section shall apply to the Postal Service unless expressly made applicable;

(2) all provisions of title 18 dealing with the Postal Service, the mails, and officers or employees of the Government of the United States;
Basically Title 18 doesn't pertain to the topic under discussion, CCW in a post office, at all.
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Old 10-12-2012, 16:47   #15
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Originally Posted by HerrGlock View Post
May be but if you're going into a post office for stamps, isn't that one of the official uses of a post office?

This one's going to get into the courts a few times before it's ironed out. Right now even the post office is posting horse feathers with some of the signs actually stating the US Code forbids carry there.
I read the 'official business' as meaning LEO or anyone else carrying in and 'official' capacity.

Part of my job is reading government laws and rulings and redistributing the meaning to businesses in plain language.

Not saying my interpretation is not wrong, but I've had 40 years of deciphering the meaning in government language.


ETA: On the other hand, an couple of years ago someone on another forum did quote a law, separate from the 'Federal building' specifically restricting firearms carry in the USPS. I did leave it open for interpretation as to whether it applied to the customer side of the counter or only to the employee side. Don't remember where it was now, but I do remember just how specific it was, and how surprised I was.

ETA 2: Whoops, there is was up above 232.1

On the other hand, concealed means concealed.
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Old 10-13-2012, 08:46   #16
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Part of my job is reading government laws and rulings and redistributing the meaning to businesses in plain language.
What is your take on this?
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce M View Post
I suspect that this regulation may have been written exactly that way to be able to be used or not used as desired. It gives people at several levels lots of discretion and options.

I also suspect that 39 CFR 232 does not supercede other laws at both the federal and state level.

"(2) Whoever shall be found guilty of violating the rules and regulations in this section while on property under the charge and control of the Postal Service is subject to a fine as provided in 18 U.S.C. 3571 or imprisonment of not more than 30 days, or both. Nothing contained in these rules and regulations shall be construed to abrogate any other Federal laws or regulations or any State and local laws and regulations applicable to any area in which the property is situated." 39 CFR 232 (p)
Then we need to reconcile with this:
Quote:
Title 39 - Postal Service

232.1 Conduct on postal property.

(l) Weapons and explosives. Notwithstanding the provisions of any other law, rule or regulation, no person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for official purposes.
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Old 10-11-2012, 04:14   #17
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Yeah, HerrGlock's got ya!

LEGAL carry inside a post office is not a, 'huge no-no'. The prohibition against post office carry is not a federal law. It is a federal regulation which, in strict point-of-fact, cannot be federally enforced inside any post office building. Why? Because the post office is not a federal organization; and post office buildings are not owned by the federal government. The United States Post Office is a privately-held corporation. All you're doing when you LEGALLY carry inside a post office is disobeying the property owner's wishes.

Disallowing (otherwise) legally carried firearms in post offices is an example of what is called, 'national fiat legislation'. This rule is a residual government regulation, passed without valid congressional consent, and left over from the antithetical 1990's Clinton administration.

(Besides, as every well-informed American citizen knows: It's the guys ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE POST OFFICE COUNTER that you really have to worry about!)

Last edited by Arc Angel; 10-11-2012 at 04:20..
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Old 10-11-2012, 05:24   #18
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There's a lawsuit in Denver against the USPS by a husband and wife based on violation of 2A rights. The USPS, naturally, argued to a judge that it should be tossed out. The judge said, nope, it's valid and is allowing it to continue.

Edit: The most recent action in the case was months ago, but as I recall the rep from the USPS said something like, our customers have to feel safe when they come to the Post Office. Yeah right, their customers except those that can legally carry and have to leave their fireams in their vehicles, which is exactly what the husband argued. The judge must have thought the husband had a valid point; he gave the green light and allowed the lawsuit to go forward.

Bill

Last edited by CA Escapee; 10-11-2012 at 06:05.. Reason: Trying to type at 0530 in the morning.
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Old 10-11-2012, 05:49   #19
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There's a lawsuit in Denver against the USPS based on violation of 2A rights by a husband and wife.. The USPS, naturally, argued to a judge that it should be tossed out. The judge said, nope, it's valid and is allowing it to continue.
Yup, I'm watching that one closely.

So far there's only one case I'm aware of that went to the Supreme Court with ONLY a firearm on P.O. property charge.

Drug dealer on the property, some other stuff went on, they busted him because he had a handgun in the car. Court ruled "the parking lot is not a facility" so even if the US Code were in force for the P.O. the parking lot wasn't covered so his conviction was overturned.

I really need to find that one again. Took me months to find it before and I didn't bookmark it. Riggin' friggin'...

So this Denver one and the one in Louisiana are the only two alive right now that I can find without too much looking.
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Old 10-11-2012, 05:51   #20
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Yeah, HerrGlock's got ya!

LEGAL carry inside a post office is not a, 'huge no-no'. The prohibition against post office carry is not a federal law. It is a federal regulation which, in strict point-of-fact, cannot be federally enforced inside any post office building. ...

That sounds really cool. I however might be reluctant to attempt to offer that up to either the US Postal Police or the US Postal Inspection Service just in case they have a slightly different interpretation of whether or not they can enforce that section of Title 18. I wonder when they arrest someone for burglarizing a USPS facility or for committing an armed robbery at a Post Office whether they prosecute that as a federal or state crime?
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Last edited by Bruce M; 10-11-2012 at 05:57..
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