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Old 01-04-2013, 14:43   #1
elsielover
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An interesting read on creationism

http://theness.com/neurologicablog/i...eated-history/


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Old 01-04-2013, 15:22   #2
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That article was very well written. I especially like:

"Let us consider, for example, supernovae. These are events that are occurring all over the universe, on average about once per galaxy per century. Letís say God created a star in the Andromeda galaxy 6,000 years ago. The star was created mature, near the end of its life (for the sake of argument, letís grant creationists that premise), and so it quickly goes supernova. The light from that event would still take about 2 million years to reach the earth. The only way we can see a supernova in Andromeda is if that event took place 2 million years ago.

If creationists are now going to rescue their concept of a young universe with the argument of created history they have a serious logical problem on their hands. This would mean that God, for some reason, not only created light from existing stars all along its path to the earth, but imbued that light with a fake history of that star, including all the things that would have happened to that light if it actually had been traveling along that path for millions or billions of years. This includes being bent by gravity and absorbed in gas clouds.

God also must have created streams of light from fake stars that never existed, to create the illusion that such a star did exist but went supernova millions or billions of years ago."
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Old 01-04-2013, 22:01   #3
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That article was very well written. I especially like:

"Let us consider, for example, supernovae. These are events that are occurring all over the universe, on average about once per galaxy per century. Letís say God created a star in the Andromeda galaxy 6,000 years ago. The star was created mature, near the end of its life (for the sake of argument, letís grant creationists that premise), and so it quickly goes supernova. The light from that event would still take about 2 million years to reach the earth. The only way we can see a supernova in Andromeda is if that event took place 2 million years ago.

If creationists are now going to rescue their concept of a young universe with the argument of created history they have a serious logical problem on their hands. This would mean that God, for some reason, not only created light from existing stars all along its path to the earth, but imbued that light with a fake history of that star, including all the things that would have happened to that light if it actually had been traveling along that path for millions or billions of years. This includes being bent by gravity and absorbed in gas clouds.

God also must have created streams of light from fake stars that never existed, to create the illusion that such a star did exist but went supernova millions or billions of years ago."
It's not so much that creationists manage to explain away things like ancient starlight, it's that they do it in such a grand variety of ways, from white hole cosmology to tired light to Riemannian geometry to localized gravity lenses, etc. Then, when any of these explanations are shown to fail under observation, rather than accepting the mainstream scientific explanation, they move on to a new explanation which can be shoehorned into agreeing with the Biblical chronology they've constructed.
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Old 01-05-2013, 03:44   #4
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Science and God do no have to exclude one another but most religious folks are far to caught up in it all (dumb) to realize that.

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Old 01-05-2013, 18:26   #5
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Originally Posted by juggy4711 View Post
Science and God do no have to exclude one another but most religious folks are far to caught up in it all (dumb) to realize that.
Got that one right. The Atheists around here believe that science and Theism are mutually exclusive.

It takes an extreme amount of self disillusionment to believe that.


Scientific knowledge neither proves, nor disproves the existence, or non-existence of a deity.
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Old 01-05-2013, 20:01   #6
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Got that one right. The Atheists around here believe that science and Theism are mutually exclusive.

It takes an extreme amount of self disillusionment to believe that.


Scientific knowledge neither proves, nor disproves the existence, or non-existence of a deity.
The methods are mutually exclusive. Robert Boyle did not just preach the truth of Boyle's Law and have a bunch of believers go dunk themselves in a river and proclaim Boyle's Law correct. He did experiments that can be successfully repeated today.

So what do you consider more likely to have happened Doc?

that ...
a) Boyle actually did the experiments he is credited with and proved Boyle's Law? or that ....

b) Balaams donkey talked to Balaam shortly before an angel revealed himself to Balaam?

Do you give equal credence to these two stories Doc? Or does one seem more likely to have happened than the other?
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Old 01-05-2013, 20:39   #7
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The methods are mutually exclusive. Robert Boyle did not just preach the truth of Boyle's Law and have a bunch of believers go dunk themselves in a river and proclaim Boyle's Law correct. He did experiments that can be successfully repeated today.

So what do you consider more likely to have happened Doc?

that ...
a) Boyle actually did the experiments he is credited with and proved Boyle's Law? or that ....

b) Balaams donkey talked to Balaam shortly before an angel revealed himself to Balaam?

Do you give equal credence to these two stories Doc? Or does one seem more likely to have happened than the other?
It is what it is. We are where we are, no doubt about that.

I argue for accepting that we don't know for sure, in spite of those that are sure.
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Old 01-05-2013, 21:40   #8
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The methods are mutually exclusive. Robert Boyle did not just preach the truth of Boyle's Law and have a bunch of believers go dunk themselves in a river and proclaim Boyle's Law correct. He did experiments that can be successfully repeated today.

So what do you consider more likely to have happened Doc?

that ...
a) Boyle actually did the experiments he is credited with and proved Boyle's Law? or that ....

b) Balaams donkey talked to Balaam shortly before an angel revealed himself to Balaam?

Do you give equal credence to these two stories Doc? Or does one seem more likely to have happened than the other?
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It is what it is. We are where we are, no doubt about that.

I argue for accepting that we don't know for sure, in spite of those that are sure.

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Old 01-07-2013, 16:04   #9
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Got that one right. The Atheists around here believe that science and Theism are mutually exclusive.

It takes an extreme amount of self disillusionment to believe that.


Scientific knowledge neither proves, nor disproves the existence, or non-existence of a deity.
So I guess you've taken me out of the camp of "Atheists around here believe that science and Theism are mutually exclusive" since your stalker skills have surely turned up this little post I made?

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show...&postcount=102
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Old 01-07-2013, 17:55   #10
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So I guess you've taken me out of the camp of "Atheists around here believe that science and Theism are mutually exclusive" since your stalker skills have surely turned up this little post I made?

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show...&postcount=102
Are you smoking early in the afternoon again?

Stalker skills? Looking at publicly available resources of this site is not stalking. I have no desire to find you. You seem like a very unpleasant fellow, and I wouldn't hang out with you, or even agree to meet you briefly for a thousand dollars.

Take a break from the ad homs and stick to the subject. It might help resurrect your bruised ego.
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Old 01-05-2013, 03:55   #11
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How anyone can look around them in their everyday life and think that what they see is simply the result of an explosion is beyond me. Look at all of the different ways living things reproduce, for example. There is no way that all happened randomly. It's probably pointless to even write this, because some folks will never be convinced one way or another. I fall squarely in the intelligent design camp, and do not exclude scientific theories as the means used by God to put us here.
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Old 01-05-2013, 04:42   #12
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How anyone can look around them in their everyday life and think that what they see is simply the result of an explosion is beyond me. Look at all of the different ways living things reproduce, for example. There is no way that all happened randomly. It's probably pointless to even write this, because some folks will never be convinced one way or another. I fall squarely in the intelligent design camp, and do not exclude scientific theories as the means used by God to put us here.
If you fall into the intelligent design camp, you do exclude science.
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Old 01-05-2013, 05:40   #13
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How anyone can look around them in their everyday life and think that what they see is simply the result of an explosion is beyond me. Look at all of the different ways living things reproduce, for example. There is no way that all happened randomly. It's probably pointless to even write this, because some folks will never be convinced one way or another. I fall squarely in the intelligent design camp, and do not exclude scientific theories as the means used by God to put us here.
How anyone can come up with that is beyond me. I've heard it said that the different ways living things reproduce proves that it happened randomly, but any rational person understands that it was all created by a team of gods, not only one, otherwise all reproduction would be the same - or, at least similar, if you throw in evolution.
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Old 01-05-2013, 06:41   #14
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How anyone can look around them in their everyday life and think that what they see is simply the result of an explosion is beyond me.
How anyone can look around them in their everyday life and think that what they see is so simple they can udnerstand it without making any effort to learn the science behind it and that they can get a true answer because some ancient people, without even our most basic level of education, wrote it in a book, with no supporting evidence, is beyond me.

Did you ever read any of the other dozens or hundreds of stories they wrote about where all of this came from? The backs of turtles and horns of bulls and dung beetles and climbing up blades of grass from the last world and such? They have equal evidence and are equally likely - are they all true or just, coincidentally, the one your parents/community believed when and where you were born? Is it a popularity contest? Whatever religion gets the most people gets to decide how the world got here...until another religion gets more people and the "truth" changes?
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Old 01-05-2013, 06:54   #15
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How anyone can look around them in their everyday life and think that what they see is simply the result of an explosion is beyond me. Look at all of the different ways living things reproduce, for example. There is no way that all happened randomly. It's probably pointless to even write this, because some folks will never be convinced one way or another. I fall squarely in the intelligent design camp, and do not exclude scientific theories as the means used by God to put us here.
I know of no one that believes the universe is simply the result of an explosion or happened at random. Only people I ever encountered professing such are religious folks misrepresenting, if not out right lying about how science describes existence.
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Old 01-05-2013, 07:02   #16
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For laws to be, there has to be a law giver. Also I would like anyone to show me in the Bible that the universe is young?

I can prove as much proof as you need from the Bible that the universe is infact NOT young.
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Old 01-05-2013, 13:32   #17
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For laws to be, there has to be a law giver. Also I would like anyone to show me in the Bible that the universe is young?

I can prove as much proof as you need from the Bible that the universe is infact NOT young.
Genesis describes a 6 day creation with Adam and Eve being created on the 6th day.

Luke chapter 3 verses 23-38 describes 76 generations from Adam to Jesus inclusive.

That suggests a very young earth. And if a day does not mean a day than what good is a reference that does not clearly state what it means?

But we are discussing the book that had Balaam's donkey talking to him in Numbers chapter 22. Claims of talking donkeys don't sound credible to me although I did enjoy watching Mr Ed when I was a child.
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Old 01-05-2013, 13:54   #18
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Genesis describes a 6 day creation with Adam and Eve being created on the 6th day.

Luke chapter 3 verses 23-38 describes 76 generations from Adam to Jesus inclusive.

That suggests a very young earth. And if a day does not mean a day than what good is a reference that does not clearly state what it means?

But we are discussing the book that had Balaam's donkey talking to him in Numbers chapter 22. Claims of talking donkeys don't sound credible to me although I did enjoy watching Mr Ed when I was a child.
Have you not read that long before man was created satan walked and ruled the earth, his name then was lucifer or angel of light. He reigned on earth over the angels for what could have been billions of yrs. he then rebelled against God and the earth was left without form and void ( this means left chaotic). The Bible is clear that the earth was here long before man dawned it. The book of Gen describes a 6 day recreation of the earth so ,an could live on it after the war happened.
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Old 01-05-2013, 13:13   #19
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How anyone can look around them in their everyday life and think that what they see is simply the result of an explosion is beyond me. Look at all of the different ways living things reproduce, for example. There is no way that all happened randomly. It's probably pointless to even write this, because some folks will never be convinced one way or another. I fall squarely in the intelligent design camp, and do not exclude scientific theories as the means used by God to put us here.
Here's a short list of things that are beyond me and my ability or willingness to understand,

Getting 64 gb of data onto a micro SD card the size of 1/4 of a postage stamp.

Building a robot and having it control it's own reentry, decent and landing on a planet 150 million miles away and then proceed to send back useful images and chemical analysis data on the soil there.

Building a 4 mile long particle accelerator underground along with all the reasons why one would want to do that and what they might be looking for and what it means once that thing has been found.

Yet there sits the card in my tablet happily transferring it's data back and forth with other chips, and there rolls the Mars rover after a ridiculously complex automated landing sequence and there comes the data from CERN about particles all around us that no one previously knew about despite my inability to understand much of it at all.

But I could be a cave man and have trouble grasping the concept of an electric screwdriver. It makes no difference the who or the what. Your inability or unwillingness to understand has no bearing on what is truth or not and to suggest so indicates a hubris and narcissism that only religion could breed.

Science is your key to understanding that which you can't currently fathom. If you're having trouble understanding something then you might try embracing science rather than rejecting it.
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Old 01-05-2013, 08:07   #20
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Comprehending geological time is nearly impossible for most everyone, making it impossible for some to allow for or embrace those processes that require that time.


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