News report showing that CCW is "ineffective"

jbailey8 · 01-04-2013, 21:59

Proof that Concealed Carry permit holders live in a dream world, Part One - YouTube

I wasn't impressed with this video and thought some of you may want to take a look. This was uploaded to youtube in 2010 and it was pretty biased. They take a police firearms instructor and put him in an active shooter situation as the attacker to see how average CCers will react. I like the idea as a training point, but the media spin is pathetic.

What's your thoughts?

APERS · 01-04-2013, 22:16

In light of all the mass shootings in gun free zones/posted areas/posted buildings.. CCW is not effective where it is not allowed..?

Atomic Punk · 01-04-2013, 22:19

the gloves and setup aside. most gunmen busting into a room dont know in advance who is armed, and exactly where they are.
the whole thing is just silly.

cowboy1964 · 01-04-2013, 22:23

This is an old story. Have been many threads here.

I don't care if anyone thinks it's ineffective or not.

IndyGunFreak · 01-05-2013, 14:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by cowboy1964

This is an old story. Have been many threads here.

I don't care if anyone thinks it's ineffective or not.

Pretty much. This is along the same lines as people saying "CCW reduces crime". Most states, see very little change in their crime rates after ccw passes (aside from normal variations, and crime has been on the downward trend for some time).

I don't care if crime doubles when CCW is passed.. if it's not CCW holders committing the crime, it's irrelevant.

dosei · 01-05-2013, 16:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by IndyGunFreak

Pretty much. This is along the same lines as people saying "CCW reduces crime". Most states, see very little change in their crime rates after ccw passes (aside from normal variations, and crime has been on the downward trend for some time).

I don't care if crime doubles when CCW is passed.. if it's not CCW holders committing the crime, it's irrelevant.

But one interesting thing to note...in the last 20 years, the violent crime rate has gone DOWN SIGNIFICANTLY according to FBI Stats (and one of the most significant trends in the last 20 years has been the rise of states passing shall-issue laws and the significant increases of people getting permits).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...v=Ooa98FHuaU0#!

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr...tables/table-1

Funny isn't it...violent crime has been FALLING STEADILY as the number of states issuing permits and number of people getting permits has steadily been on the increase.

So, who here has been hearing any of this on the news...the steady drops in violent crime...???

IndyGunFreak · 01-06-2013, 06:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by dosei

Funny isn't it...violent crime has been FALLING STEADILY as the number of states issuing permits and number of people getting permits has steadily been on the increase.

So, who here has been hearing any of this on the news...the steady drops in violent crime...???

I don't dispute crime has not been falling steadily for several years... I just don't like people saying it's "because of CCW". CCW may have an effect, but I'm sure there's a myriad of other issues that do as well.

Crime rates should be totally irrelevant to CCW Unless there's a massive jump in CCW'ers committing felonies, they're two unrelated issues in my opinion.

As for the news..

IGF

**RussP** · 01-06-2013, 07:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by dosei

But one interesting thing to note...in the last 20 years, the violent crime rate has gone DOWN SIGNIFICANTLY according to FBI Stats (and one of the most significant trends in the last 20 years has been the rise of states passing shall-issue laws and the significant increases of people getting permits).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...v=Ooa98FHuaU0#!

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr...tables/table-1

Funny isn't it...violent crime has been FALLING STEADILY as the number of states issuing permits and number of people getting permits has steadily been on the increase.

So, who here has been hearing any of this on the news...the steady drops in violent crime...???

Well, you might say that the fear of prosecution and lengthy hard time incarceration caused it, but, yeah, I think that might be wrong.

Would it be that traditional core family values are coming back. We can hope, but probably not.

Maybe it IS because more people are drawing their weapons when threatened resulting in no crime committed, or the attacker wounded or DRT. I mean, that's the way it is in some movies, right? There are movies that celebrate the use of firearms by average citizens to defeat crime, aren't there?

steveksux · 01-06-2013, 10:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by RussP

Well, you might say that the fear of prosecution and lengthy hard time incarceration caused it, but, yeah, I think that might be wrong.

Would it be that traditional core family values are coming back. We can hope, but probably not.

Maybe it IS because more people are drawing their weapons when threatened resulting in no crime committed, or the attacker wounded or DRT. I mean, that's the way it is in some movies, right? There are movies that celebrate the use of firearms by average citizens to defeat crime, aren't there?

Hard to say which is correlation and which is causation.

If there was a breakdown by state/year as to how the stats are going down, is there a knee in the state/year where shall issue is approved? Has the crime rate dropped by a similar rate in the few states where CCW is rare, NY, DC, IL?

I would think it'd take a few years to show any effect, until the #s of permit holders increased over time.

There's an increasing number of articles in the local papers where robbers and permit holders run into each other, but Detroit is probably not representative of the country as a whole. And they probably make the papers because its out of the ordinary, there's a LOT of robberies that don't make the papers out here.

Its even possible the "war on drugs" has actually helped, by keeping potential muggers in prison on drug charges.

I don't think the thought of running into a permit holder deters criminals any more than running into cops. They aren't good at risk analysis. And if they really thought running into permit holders was a problem, I think they'd change tactics and actually shoot rather than threatening to shoot at the outset of the robbery. Most of the robber/CCW encounters have surprise on the side of the CCWer, because they do NOT expect to run into a permit holder, allowing the CCWer to prevail.

Don't get me wrong, people absolutely ought to have the right to CCW so that the few who do happen to run into robbers have a fighting chance to control their own destiny.

I'm just not convinced that shall issue is behind the drop in crime rates.

Randy

lilmule · 01-04-2013, 22:38

I think anyone is ineffective if the attacker has a firearm out and pointing at you,be silly to try to bring yours out unless you thought they would shoot anyway,then most likly both shot you twice since he had his out him once,with you having the biggest problem.
Last resort situation,distracted stand a chance,against other weapons stand a bigger chance,like ball bat at ten ft and you see it coming.
Carrying a gun does not mean you wont die,but stand a better chance of taking them with you or averting it all together.
Would it pay to stop a crime if it resulted in a gunfight,with others in the vicinity.
Assuming they are whacco yes, otherwise no.

SCmasterblaster · 01-08-2013, 14:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by lilmule

I think anyone is ineffective if the attacker has a firearm out and pointing at you,be silly to try to bring yours out unless you thought they would shoot anyway,then most likly both shot you twice since he had his out him once,with you having the biggest problem.
Last resort situation,distracted stand a chance,against other weapons stand a bigger chance,like ball bat at ten ft and you see it coming.
Carrying a gun does not mean you wont die,but stand a better chance of taking them with you or averting it all together.
Would it pay to stop a crime if it resulted in a gunfight,with others in the vicinity.
Assuming they are whacco yes, otherwise no.

I wouldn't miss my target mugger!

Gray_Rider · 01-04-2013, 22:42

Never faced with an active shooter situatuion, but I would beg to differ with the effectiveness of CCW for my part....I would have been in serious trouble w/o one on at least one occasion and I didn't even have to draw it. Hundreds of such situations like mine go down every month and everyone goes home safe. No shots fired, just the presence......

Gray_Rider

xmanhockey7 · 01-05-2013, 06:40

Don't even get me started about how B.S. this "news report" is. I bet I can make a video that shows the "CCW" holder to be a great to have. They'll even get the girl when the dust settles.

Bren · 01-05-2013, 06:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbailey8

What's your thoughts?

It is ridiculous and proves nothing. My evidence? Time after time after time we post news articles of CCWers winning against bad guys who have drawn guns, superior numbers, surprise, etc.

It clearly works and it always has - that's why the police carry guns.

I'm a concealed carry permit holder - I'll bet I have more training and qualification, including more certifications as a law enforcement firearms instrutor than everybody in that video combined.

steveksux · 01-05-2013, 07:47

I think it's interesting that these people are so clueless that they try to take on an armed intruder with simunitions rather than taking cover and fleeing.

Taking people who have never carried before, pretending they respond like the average ccwer seems rather dubious too.

Randy

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**RussP** · 01-05-2013, 07:48

First, anything put out by VPC, the Violence Policy Center, http://www.vpc.org/index.htm, should not be considered a "news report."

VPC is an anti-firearm, anti-2nd Amendment group dedicated to disarming America.

Please go to their website before giving the video credibility.

steveksux · 01-05-2013, 07:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by RussP

First, anything put out by VPC, the Violence Policy Center, http://www.vpc.org/index.htm, should not be considered a "news report."

VPC is an anti-firearm, anti-2nd Amendment group dedicated to disarming America.

Please go to their website before giving the video credibility.

Not their video, they merely stole it from news media.
It's a logical fallacy to shoot the wrong messenger...

Randy

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**RussP** · 01-05-2013, 08:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by steveksux

Not their video, they merely stole it from news media.
It's a logical fallacy to shoot the wrong messenger...

Randy

Click on the YouTube link...does it not go to VPC Videos. They are promoting, endorsing the video. Stolen from ABC News? Yeah, and ABC News is the unbiased fair and balanced source for reporting on firearms?

As I said, rephrased, anything put out by, promoted by, endorsed by, used by VPC should not be considered accurate reporting of anything connected to firearms and their legal use.

**robhic** · 01-05-2013, 09:32

OK, so I take a few people with MINIMAL (1/2 hour?) training, put gloves on their hands and then expect them to go, cold, into a life-or-death situation? Really? And this passes as fair journalism? What a crock!!!

What about they let them drive around in a new car for an hour or so and then give them a set of tools and tell them to take the engine out. What? Nobody could do that?

Well, that is what, to me, this "demonstration" of how ineffective weapons use is by comparison. GTFO!!!

xmanhockey7 · 01-05-2013, 09:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by robhic

OK, so I take a few people with MINIMAL (1/2 hour?) training, put gloves on their hands and then expect them to go, cold, into a life-or-death situation? Really? And this passes as fair journalism? What a crock!!!

What about they let them drive around in a new car for an hour or so and then give them a set of tools and tell them to take the engine out. What? Nobody could do that?

Well, that is what, to me, this "demonstration" of how ineffective weapons use is by comparison. GTFO!!!

Not to mention the "active shooter" knows exactly who to shoot because they're in on it and everyone in the class goes running past the shooter to do the door. Really? I'm betting there would be far more people ducking under the desk or sitting there frozen.

steveksux · 01-06-2013, 09:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by RussP

Click on the YouTube link...does it not go to VPC Videos. They are promoting, endorsing the video. Stolen from ABC News? Yeah, and ABC News is the unbiased fair and balanced source for reporting on firearms?

As I said, rephrased, anything put out by, promoted by, endorsed by, used by VPC should not be considered accurate reporting of anything connected to firearms and their legal use.

No arguments from me, just messing with you, mixing metaphors. I'm sure ABC is no better than VPC on 2A issues...

Randy

FireForged · 01-05-2013, 09:42

if having a firearm in ineffective against a mad man with a gun then why do people call the police?

WhiskeyUnicorn · 01-05-2013, 10:07

open carry would have prevented this...or a better holster...or if the "gunman" didn't know that guy was armed...

2-8 Marine · 01-05-2013, 10:08

Pure and utter soya s**t.

Gunnut 45/454 · 01-05-2013, 10:36

OP then join the unarmed liberals and be a victim! If you can't or do not know how to employ deadly force don't carry! I for one do know how and when to employ deadly force and will every time it's required! Thats the difference! Sure there is alway the chance you will catch a round during a gun fight thats why it called a gun fight! The trick is to make the other guy bleed more!