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Old 01-13-2013, 01:29   #1
EL_NinO619
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Dillon, Lee, Hornady Progressive Comparison

Gotcha to look didn't I? You thought, Oh no not EL_NinO again and his frigging Lee & Hornady..? Not my point of view. But this guy took time with every machine. He gave a honest review, I believe.

http://www.comrace.ca/cmfiles/dillon...Comparison.pdf
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File Type: pdf dillonLeeHornadyComparison.pdf (336.1 KB, 503 views)
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Old 01-13-2013, 02:24   #2
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I read that back when I was trying to decide which press to get. It's a good read, I think, but I've no experience with Dillon or Lee to compare. His assessment of Hornady seems to be right on, although I don't have a case feeder, so I really can't comment on that.
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Old 01-13-2013, 06:42   #3
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EL_NinO619,

Thanks for the posting, definitely food for thought. As the author of the article presented at the out-set, some are very outspoken about their choice of presses... and perhaps from their point of view and use of equipment - rightfully so!

I started out with a LEE single stage because that is what the guys who were teaching me were using (these were long time/old time re-loaders). Since I have LEE dies & such, I progressed into a LEE classic turret press. Now despite some minor "quirks" these two presses have served me well for my test loads and larger productions runs.

I the past 3 years, I have been getting involved with more and more competitions and local matches so I am going through quite a bit more ammo than in the past. Historically I have used the winter months for re-stocking my ammo and competing from spring to fall. My LEE's just can't keep up. I have been looking into a "Progressive" press and did some of my own comparison.

I am the type of person who likes to do my homework, buy something once and keep it until it just falls apart. Based on my research, a Dillon is more expensive, a bit of a pain to get set up right, but (watch the wording now) in the long run... is the best bang for the buck.

That is why this spring (unless this president and is band of merry men totally jack this country up) I have decided to purchase a Dillon to keep up with my growing ammo needs.

That's my perspective
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Old 01-13-2013, 11:25   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kentguy View Post
EL_NinO619,

Thanks for the posting, definitely food for thought. As the author of the article presented at the out-set, some are very outspoken about their choice of presses... and perhaps from their point of view and use of equipment - rightfully so!

I started out with a LEE single stage because that is what the guys who were teaching me were using (these were long time/old time re-loaders). Since I have LEE dies & such, I progressed into a LEE classic turret press. Now despite some minor "quirks" these two presses have served me well for my test loads and larger productions runs.

I the past 3 years, I have been getting involved with more and more competitions and local matches so I am going through quite a bit more ammo than in the past. Historically I have used the winter months for re-stocking my ammo and competing from spring to fall. My LEE's just can't keep up. I have been looking into a "Progressive" press and did some of my own comparison.

I am the type of person who likes to do my homework, buy something once and keep it until it just falls apart. Based on my research, a Dillon is more expensive, a bit of a pain to get set up right, but (watch the wording now) in the long run... is the best bang for the buck.

That is why this spring (unless this president and is band of merry men totally jack this country up) I have decided to purchase a Dillon to keep up with my growing ammo needs.

That's my perspective
Curious.. which Dillon are you considering? I have no experience w/ the 550 (or the LNL for that matter), but if you get a 650, I have a feeling you will be VERY pleased.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MudFlap379 View Post
C4W, I'm curious what kinda problems you had? I've run a lotta ammo thru mine, and never had any issues. I almost went with a 650, but didn't have funds.... figured I could add a case feeder later for the LNL. Still don't have the funds for that, but someday, when I'm not paying $2500/month for child support, I'll get the case feeder.
Oh dear... That might require multiple posts, as his posts will be very long..
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Old 01-13-2013, 06:06   #5
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So you implying he is right and others on this forum have essentially done the same thing are not being "honest". I have owned all three. The LoadMaster shouldn't even be compared to those two and the 650 is far better then the LnL. He even admits the LnL didn't work as good and he still preferred the LnL. That makes zero sense to me. What I learned from the article is the following....

Anyone can post anything they want on the internet. That doesn't make it true.

That article helped me rationalize a LnL over the 650 and that was a HUGE mistake.

I have a objective ways I can prove the Dillon is better. It's called a Caliber conversion kit. Look at all the caliber specific parts Dillon has that Hornady does not. It's those parts that make the 650 the better press.
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Old 01-13-2013, 08:51   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colorado4Wheel View Post
So you implying he is right and others on this forum have essentially done the same thing are not being "honest". I have owned all three. The LoadMaster shouldn't even be compared to those two and the 650 is far better then the LnL. He even admits the LnL didn't work as good and he still preferred the LnL. That makes zero sense to me. What I learned from the article is the following....

Anyone can post anything they want on the internet. That doesn't make it true.

That article helped me rationalize a LnL over the 650 and that was a HUGE mistake.

I have a objective ways I can prove the Dillon is better. It's called a Caliber conversion kit. Look at all the caliber specific parts Dillon has that Hornady does not. It's those parts that make the 650 the better press.
No, I merely meant that that was one of the seemingly trillion pieces of information I read thru in the quest to make an informed decision. The setup I have works perfectly, and I'm happy with it.
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Old 01-13-2013, 08:59   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MudFlap379 View Post
No, I merely meant that that was one of the seemingly trillion pieces of information I read thru in the quest to make an informed decision. The setup I have works perfectly, and I'm happy with it.
I wasn't referring to your post.
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Old 01-13-2013, 10:34   #8
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Originally Posted by Colorado4Wheel View Post
I wasn't referring to your post.
As you were, carry on..... ;-) Sorry bout that
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Old 01-13-2013, 10:39   #9
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I read that article several years ago. I wish I hadn't because it helped reinforce my choice of buying a LNL AP. I returned my LNL. To be completely fair had I not owned the 550 for several years first I would have spent more time trying to work out the issues I was having with the LNL. If you don't want a case feeder and your not spending 90%of your time loading 9mm then it is still a viable choice.
I would describe the differences as the LNL AP being home owner quality were as the Dillon is commercial quality.
If you are going to buy a case feeder the price is so close you might as well opt for the commercial quality one any way. I am going to agree with Brian Enos and say that the vast majority of reloaders should just buy the Dillon 550 and done with it.
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Old 01-13-2013, 10:49   #10
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Originally Posted by shotgunred View Post
I read that article several years ago. I wish I hadn't because it helped reinforce my choice of buying a LNL AP. I returned my LNL.
So that is two people sucked in by his supposedly accurate and fair review.
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Old 01-13-2013, 18:47   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colorado4Wheel View Post
So you implying he is right and others on this forum have essentially done the same thing are not being "honest". I have owned all three. The LoadMaster shouldn't even be compared to those two and the 650 is far better then the LnL. He even admits the LnL didn't work as good and he still preferred the LnL. That makes zero sense to me. What I learned from the article is the following....

Anyone can post anything they want on the internet. That doesn't make it true.

That article helped me rationalize a LnL over the 650 and that was a HUGE mistake.

I have a objective ways I can prove the Dillon is better. It's called a Caliber conversion kit. Look at all the caliber specific parts Dillon has that Hornady does not. It's those parts that make the 650 the better press.
I agree with what he said on the LnL. And I am not saying anyone is a liar on this forum. He really should not even be comparing a 650 to a LnL. My LnL works, I have no problems with priming. It never jams because of spilt powder, though I don't spill a lot of powder. The lock and load bushing I have are all uniform and tight. I simply have never seen this write up and was sharing it, that's all.
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On 2 Hornady LNL's And a Super 1050

As Reloaders we should adapt the load to the gun, not the gun to the load.
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Old 01-14-2013, 09:01   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colorado4Wheel View Post
So you implying he is right and others on this forum have essentially done the same thing are not being "honest". I have owned all three. The LoadMaster shouldn't even be compared to those two and the 650 is far better then the LnL. He even admits the LnL didn't work as good and he still preferred the LnL. That makes zero sense to me. What I learned from the article is the following....

Anyone can post anything they want on the internet. That doesn't make it true.

That article helped me rationalize a LnL over the 650 and that was a HUGE mistake.

I have a objective ways I can prove the Dillon is better. It's called a Caliber conversion kit. Look at all the caliber specific parts Dillon has that Hornady does not. It's those parts that make the 650 the better press.
Totally agree. While I have not owned all three, I have loaded on all three. You realy can not even compare the Lee regressive & the LNL in the same sentence & neither is even close to a 650. The priming feed on the 650 is so much better than either, that alone would be enough to warrant the slightly higher cost to a LNL. THe case feeder is also quite a bit better, a bonus.
If you want 700-800rds/hr w/ as little drama as can be, you buy the 650. FUlly upgraded for one caliber, all the little goodies needed to reload, you are under $1200. Over 20yrs of reloading, that is $5/m. Really, for $5/m you would buy anything else?
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Old 01-14-2013, 20:33   #13
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I can see that objectivity is overflowing - as usual.
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Old 01-13-2013, 06:30   #14
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There really isn't much value in that write up. He uses subjective observations as opposed to measurements etc.

The issue is which machine loads properly spec ammunition reliably. Next you can determine the speed and cost you want for further evaluation.
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Old 01-13-2013, 06:55   #15
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There are so many things in that article that are wrong it's amazing.

1) Hornady does not have a "mostly" controlled feed path on it's cases for it's case feeder. That is it's biggest issue. Dillon does.
2) If you spill powder on the LnL it does get in the primer setup and the primer setup will jam. If your not careful (ask Zombie Steve) the press will explode parts into the ceiling.
3) Dillon Powder measure is WAY better then the Lee. It meters the same as the Hornday (both are as good as you can expect them to be). I never found Either lacking. I hear Hornady is better with Stick Powders. Never tried them in either press. He talks about squibs and bridging. Never Ever had that happen on the Dillon. It did happen on the Lee. Just because two things look similar doesn't mean they are the same.
4) He should have measured the primer seater throw and height. The Hornady is MARGINAL in this area. Dillon is not.
5) Dillon has a solid ram. Hornady is hollow, thin and flexiable.

I could go on and on.
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Old 01-13-2013, 19:05   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colorado4Wheel View Post
There are so many things in that article that are wrong it's amazing.

1) Hornady does not have a "mostly" controlled feed path on it's cases for it's case feeder. That is it's biggest issue. Dillon does.
2) If you spill powder on the LnL it does get in the primer setup and the primer setup will jam. If your not careful (ask Zombie Steve) the press will explode parts into the ceiling.
3) Dillon Powder measure is WAY better then the Lee. It meters the same as the Hornday (both are as good as you can expect them to be). I never found Either lacking. I hear Hornady is better with Stick Powders. Never tried them in either press. He talks about squibs and bridging. Never Ever had that happen on the Dillon. It did happen on the Lee. Just because two things look similar doesn't mean they are the same.
4) He should have measured the primer seater throw and height. The Hornady is MARGINAL in this area. Dillon is not.
5) Dillon has a solid ram. Hornady is hollow, thin and flexiable.

I could go on and on.
1) How is it not mostly controlled, I have never had a issue with the ramp our drop tube, only with the bowl.

2) Never have had this happen in thousands of rounds.

3) I have witnessed Dillons powder measure and I disagree, Hornadys is way better. Just as accurate to .01 gr, throws stick powder a million times better. The Dillon just will not throw stick. I also have seen and had squib loads using Dillons powder measure, the bar jams up.

4) I prime with ease, but I did add a metal shim to reduce the dimple travel. I also like the primer change over better on the LnL.

5) Agree, but I don't think its that big off a deal

6) Hornday is a lot quicker and cheaper as far as caliber changes PERIOD.

All this said, I still want a 650 and a 1050 especially a 1050. I own many Dillon products and they are all great, same with hornady. Some have flaws, some do not, each product is different.

The 650 is a better machine PERIOD, but it is also twice as much if you included tool heads. The LnL takes some tweaking, Some of the machines are purely flawed apparently (Ex Colorado) but not all. I think the article has value, is it the bible on which press to get. Hell no. But neither is the words of a Dillon owner or a Hornady owner.
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As Reloaders we should adapt the load to the gun, not the gun to the load.
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Old 01-13-2013, 19:39   #17
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Quote:
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1) How is it not mostly controlled, I have never had a issue with the ramp our drop tube, only with the bowl.


Well it's not controlled in the sense that the case is just sliding on the sub-plate. It can fall off or tip or have any number of issues. The Dillon is controlled. I posted a picture of the part. Just because you never have issues doesn't mean others don't have issues. Mine wouldn't work better then 1/50 failure rate. I am not alone as lots of people over at Brian Enos forum had the same issues.


2) Never have had this happen in thousands of rounds.


You never spilled powder and had the slider hang back? Wow, your in the minority. Most LnL owners say "Keep some compressed air to blow it out regularly"


3) I have witnessed Dillons powder measure and I disagree, Hornadys is way better. Just as accurate to .01 gr, throws stick powder a million times better. The Dillon just will not throw stick. I also have seen and had squib loads using Dillons powder measure, the bar jams up.

Never used stick in my Dillon. It's easy to find a good ball powder even in rifle. I said that in my post.

4) I prime with ease, but I did add a metal shim to reduce the dimple travel. I also like the primer change over better on the LnL.

I would rather have one that works. Mine didn't. It's the way the LnL is. Some work, some don't.


5) Agree, but I don't think its that big off a deal

6) Hornday is a lot quicker and cheaper as far as caliber changes PERIOD.

Cheaper not quicker unless you are chaning primer size. Not by a long shot. All it takes is one bushing getting stuck and the entire die has to be reset. Cheaper is not better. That is why the Dillon is better. Caliber specific parts cost more.
Yes, the 650 cost more, yes the caliber conversion with the primer change is more time consuming if you have to switch primers sizes. You can buy a primer setup and it won't take long at all. But when it comes to a press that can crank out 100 rds in 5 mins for under 1K the 650 has no peers. it's that simple
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Old 01-13-2013, 20:40   #18
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Can the Dillon 650 be used without an automatic case feeder?
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Old 01-13-2013, 20:44   #19
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yes you manually fill the case tube.
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Old 01-13-2013, 20:48   #20
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Can the Dillon 650 be used without an automatic case feeder?
Yes. I don't know why I don't come around here more often. I forget how fun these threads can be
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Old 01-14-2013, 08:55   #21
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Can the Dillon 650 be used without an automatic case feeder?
Sure, this will work. However, putting about 20 empties in the tube and running the handle for about a minute sort of defeats the purpose.

If it was a cashflow thing, like buying the case feeder the next month, then ok, manual feeding will work. As a long term solution, manual feeding is a waste of a very good press.

I have heard that some people extend the feed tube in an attempt to load even more cases.

Richard
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Old 01-14-2013, 23:54   #22
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Quote:
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1) The 650 is a better machine PERIOD, but it is also twice as much if you included tool heads. The LnL takes some tweaking, Some of the machines are purely flawed apparently (Ex Colorado) but not all. I think the article has value, is it the bible on which press to get. Hell no. But neither is the words of a Dillon owner or a Hornady owner.
IT's just not twice as much. Equip them the same way, the 650 is about $75 more. The 650 comes with everything for the case feeder but the bowl, so price it all, add the early primer warning, about $75 diff. Yes a tool head cost more than the bushings but I have personally seen the bushings come loose when running the machine fast. Hornady will even provide you shims for the bushings, tells you something. You can certainly get a LNL to run, my machinist buddy has his puring like a kitten w/a bullet feeder, but then he has rebuilt about half of it.
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Old 01-13-2013, 06:59   #23
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I didn't read the article but I know the proper route for reloaders to take. If you have the long green, and the need for the volume, the 650 is the way to go. If money is tight and you have a lot of calibers and not much need for volume or abilty to deal with quirks, get the Lee turret. If you don't have a lot of money, can tolerate some small quirks, get the Lee Pro 1000.

The Loadmaster, LNL, or anything else that is complicated, relatively expensive compared to the 1000 or turret, and loaded with quirks, should be passed over.

My Pro1000 isn't perfect, but it is dead nuts simple and for the price, I can live with imperfections that are easy to work around. The occasional screwed up primer feed is easily cleared, it takes a second or two. My 650 is nearly perfect, so it justifies the cost. The constant issues with the LNL, reported by people I trust, that are impossible, or nearly impossible to fix, doesn't justify the cost which is nearly as high as the 650.

The LM seems to have been an answer to a problem that doesn't exist. They made a machine that costs more than the 1000, is more complicated, and does nothing the 1000 won't do except have more dies stations which aren't needed. I've been reloading since 1986 with three dies and have been scratching my head at all of the new holes the press companies keep coming up with ever since.
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Old 01-13-2013, 07:03   #24
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Oh, and I'm not a big fan of the 550. I'm sure it works, but ig I'm going to spend that kind of money on a press, I'd save a couple more bucks and get the 650 for all that it does. I'm not spending that kind of money to manually index and hand place cases.

The Square Deal B looks like a viable option, but I hear very little about them. I'm aware of the pistol only limitations, but the price is right and having a Lee turret or any single stage on the other end of the bench is easily done for the rifle rounds.
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Old 01-13-2013, 08:57   #25
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http://www.brianenos.com/forums/inde...ic=58616&st=25

Read that thread. He post in it. He says he doesn't do production often. It's interesting how he admits to soft peddling things for fear of getting sued. That tells you a lot. I never soft peddle anything. You want a honest opinion about a product I have used you will get it from me.

He does like his LnL. He didn't seem to have the issues other have had (who knows maybe he just didn't report them). Many in that thread had the same issues I and other have had. He is entitled to his opinion as am I. I used the LnL for 5 months and found it severely lacking. Decided if you want to trust the opinion of someone who soft peddles issues or just tells it the way it is. Mine jammed every 100 rds at least and wouldn't seat primers any better then 99%. 1 failure to fire in a 100 rds is just not acceptable.
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