GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.

 
  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-06-2013, 23:35   #1
Animal Mother
Not Enough Gun
 
Animal Mother's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 15,644
Creationism is child abuse

Once again, Lawrence Krauss does and excellent job of explaining reality.

__________________
"Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair. Or beatin's. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you've got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back."
Animal Mother is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 01:12   #2
void *
Dereference Me!
 
void *'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: #define NULL ((void *)0)
Posts: 10,266
A bit hyperbolic, in that I don't think telling them the world is 6k years old is the equivalent of physical or mental abuse. I don't think it's /right/, necessarily, but I don't think it's the equivalent.

I agree with the basic point that if we don't educate our children in science (and here I mean not just on what is currently accepted, but how and why that is currently accepted, emphasizing the basic scientific process of being willing to throw out what is currently accepted when you've figured out something better - I know the scientific method is generally covered, but it was always kind of skimmed and taught as rote, at least in the schools I went to) we are setting them up (and therefore, ourselves collectively).
__________________
"The human mind is seldom satisfied, and is not justifiable by any natural process whatsoever, as regards geometry, our universe differs only slightly from a long-term, bi-directional, single trait selection experiment." -- Maxwell/Einstein/Johansson

Last edited by void *; 02-07-2013 at 01:18..
void * is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 01:47   #3
Blast
'nuff said
 
Blast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: NKY/Cincinnati area
Posts: 21,546


I agree with void. I respect and admire Lawrence Krauss, and I agree creationist science should not be taught in schools, but calling it child abuse is a bit much.
Creationist science is not mainstream among theists. Many theists see science as merely discovering God's method.
As for the Bible, much is metaphors, symbolism, written in an ancient time when scientific principles were unknown.
God left it up to us to discover the nature of the universe.
__________________
A man should look for what is, and not for what he thinks should be - Albert Einstein
Blast is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 02:10   #4
Gunhaver
the wrong hands
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,736
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blast View Post
I agree with void. I respect and admire Lawrence Krauss, and I agree creationist science should not be taught in schools, but calling it child abuse is a bit much.
Creationist science is not mainstream among theists. Many theists see science as merely discovering God's method.
As for the Bible, much is metaphors, symbolism, written in an ancient time when scientific principles were unknown.
God left it up to us to discover the nature of the universe.
What about not educating them on anything just to be on the safe side? Surely no information is better than incorrect information right?

If keeping your kids away from any education could be considered child abuse then filling their heads with nonsense like a 6000 year old earth and dinosaurs being ridden into battle can certainly be considered as such. That's just crap that they'll have to unlearn and overcome later in life.

Ask me about my Christian upbringing. I'd certainly call it abuse and I think most of the atheists here will tell you a similar story.
Gunhaver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 02:17   #5
void *
Dereference Me!
 
void *'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: #define NULL ((void *)0)
Posts: 10,266
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunhaver View Post
What about not educating them on anything just to be on the safe side? Surely no information is better than incorrect information right?
You would be doing them wrong, certainly. You'd be setting them up to fail in the world.

It is not, however, in my mind the equivalent of beating the crap out of a child, or raping a child, or psychologically messing with a kid's head.

If people start treating a parent telling kids things that are wrong, that the parent personally believes is true, as child abuse - that's getting too close to thought crime, in my opinion. There may be a line of mis-education where it is child abuse (knowingly telling them things that are wrong, perhaps) - but simply telling your kids something that you yourself believe is actually true, but you're wrong?

Some of the things people teach their children about history are in fact incorrect, for instance - they are merely apocryphal tales that have no historical justification, and have nothing to do with religion. The parents doing that, are they also committing child abuse?
__________________
"The human mind is seldom satisfied, and is not justifiable by any natural process whatsoever, as regards geometry, our universe differs only slightly from a long-term, bi-directional, single trait selection experiment." -- Maxwell/Einstein/Johansson

Last edited by void *; 02-07-2013 at 02:29..
void * is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 02:29   #6
Gunhaver
the wrong hands
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,736
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by void * View Post
You would be doing them wrong, certainly. You'd be setting them up to fail in the world.

It is not, however, in my mind the equivalent of beating the crap out of a child, or raping a child, or psychologically messing with a kid's head.
They psychologically messed the **** out of my head and I'll bet you can find other atheists around here that will tell a similar story. Same thing.
Gunhaver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 08:31   #7
Geko45
CLM Number 135
Smartass Pilot
 
Geko45's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Short final
Posts: 15,442


It's important to remember that mental abuse is a scale with an infinite number of degrees. Every parent (even though they might honestly try their best) has done or said something to their child that caused more harm than good. No parent is perfect and every parent can be placed somewhere on that scale (but never exactly at either furthest extreme).

Whether the parent believes they are telling the truth or acting in the child's best interest is largely irrelevant. The schizophrenic parent might really believe demons are coming for their child, so they instruct the child to perform bizarre rituals to ward them off. Is that then mental abuse? Depends on the impact on the child, really.

The question then becomes not a matter of what is and is not child abuse, but rather the establishment of criteria where we as a soceity say, "Ok, if these types of things are happening then we are going to step in". Where do we draw that line? That is the real debate.
__________________
Peace is our profession, war is just a hobby...


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.

Last edited by Geko45; 02-07-2013 at 09:28..
Geko45 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 10:05   #8
void *
Dereference Me!
 
void *'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: #define NULL ((void *)0)
Posts: 10,266
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geko45 View Post

Whether the parent believes they are telling the truth or acting in the child's best interest is largely irrelevant. The schizophrenic parent might really believe demons are coming for their child, so they instruct the child to perform bizarre rituals to ward them off. Is that then mental abuse? Depends on the impact on the child, really.

The question then becomes not a matter of what is and is not child abuse, but rather the establishment of criteria where we as a soceity say, "Ok, if these types of things are happening then we are going to step in". Where do we draw that line? That is the real debate.
Oh, sure. I don't disagree with that. I'm just saying that, if someone tells their kid 'the world is 6k years old', and they actually believe it, treating that all by itself as child abuse is hyperbole.
__________________
"The human mind is seldom satisfied, and is not justifiable by any natural process whatsoever, as regards geometry, our universe differs only slightly from a long-term, bi-directional, single trait selection experiment." -- Maxwell/Einstein/Johansson
void * is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2013, 21:15   #9
Animal Mother
Not Enough Gun
 
Animal Mother's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 15,644
Quote:
Originally Posted by void * View Post
Oh, sure. I don't disagree with that. I'm just saying that, if someone tells their kid 'the world is 6k years old', and they actually believe it, treating that all by itself as child abuse is hyperbole.
I disagree, I don't think it rises to the level of sexual or physical abuse, but it certainly does qualify as abusive behavior. "I really, really believe its true" can't be a defense here any more than it could be a defense in a "spiritual" marriage of a 12 year old to a 65 year old.

Teaching children that the world is only 6,000 years old, and all the attendant indictments of critical thinking and evaluation necessary to maintain that belief can't help but have a long lasting detrimental affect on the child.
__________________
"Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair. Or beatin's. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you've got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back."
Animal Mother is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2013, 21:27   #10
bug
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,009
I try and teach my kids how to think and reason.
Not what to think, anything less and you are doing them and yourself a disservice!

I tell them what I believe but I do not require them to agree.

child abuse? That's a little bit over the top. not as much as a 6000 year old earth or folks riding dinos is... but it is still silly..
bug is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2013, 22:44   #11
void *
Dereference Me!
 
void *'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: #define NULL ((void *)0)
Posts: 10,266
Quote:
Originally Posted by Animal Mother View Post
I disagree, I don't think it rises to the level of sexual or physical abuse, but it certainly does qualify as abusive behavior. "I really, really believe its true" can't be a defense here any more than it could be a defense in a "spiritual" marriage of a 12 year old to a 65 year old.

Teaching children that the world is only 6,000 years old, and all the attendant indictments of critical thinking and evaluation necessary to maintain that belief can't help but have a long lasting detrimental affect on the child.
I'm not arguing it's not detrimental. I'm saying that that it doesn't rise to the level of physical or sexual abuse.

I'm also arguing that you can't really have freedom of thought without allowing people to be wrong - and if they are wrong, and tell their children what they think, and we treat that as abuse - we're basically saying 'you can't tell your kids what you think', which could have a huge chilling effect (were it actually law, say). This is not to say there's no situation in which telling children false things (even if the person doing the telling truly believes those things) would be abusive, as there certainly are - but a threshold of 'Tell your kid something untrue, even if you believe it' is a bit too low for me. It's more context dependent than that.

Like I said before - plenty of people think Nero fiddled while Rome burned. If they tell their children that Nero fiddled while Rome burned, are they committing child abuse simply because they did that? I don't think so.

I think they may certainly be teaching their children a framework that includes believing things just because someone said so - and as you noted, that will certainly be to their detriment in situations that require critical thinking, unless the child is able to learn critical thinking on their own. There has to be more than the mere fact of telling a child something that is incorrect before I would consider it abuse, though.

Edit: For instance, if they tell their kid that Nero fiddled while Rome burned, and if they don't clean their room Nero's going to come back, set their room on fire, and fiddle while their room burns with them in it - that's a different story.
__________________
"The human mind is seldom satisfied, and is not justifiable by any natural process whatsoever, as regards geometry, our universe differs only slightly from a long-term, bi-directional, single trait selection experiment." -- Maxwell/Einstein/Johansson

Last edited by void *; 02-09-2013 at 09:07..
void * is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 12:05   #12
Glock36shooter
Senior Member
 
Glock36shooter's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 3,159
I think parents forget that children are adults in training. When you fill their heads with Santa Claus, Easter Bunnies, Jesus, God, Angels, Unicorns, Devils and all sorts of other imaginary nonsense you're training what will someday become a full grown adult that the lines between reality and fiction are somehow blurry when in fact they are not. But it creates a bias whether you like it or not. Which is why you have full grown adults saying things like "Evolution is a lie straight from the pits of Hell". Really look at that sentence for a second. Evolution... something which we know happens and is factual and reality... is a lie straight from the pit of an imaginary place that no one has ever seen or proven to exist. Yet it's the reality... that is considered the lie.

I consider anything that trains a person to be that irrational as abuse. It has kept them from living within reality. It has made their life a blurry devotion to creatures and beings that simply don't exist.
__________________
Pascal:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.

Theory:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.

Grace:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.

Big Bang:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.

Last edited by Glock36shooter; 02-07-2013 at 12:07..
Glock36shooter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 12:58   #13
juggy4711
Nimrod Son
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Galveston County, TX
Posts: 3,807
I agree with void. It is detrimental to the child but not to the level of abuse. Theism, atheism and the like are outside the scope of science and do not belong in science classes. If parents want their kids taught the Earth is only 6K years old it should be up to them to do so or pay to send them to some private school that will. Another good reason the Feds should not be involved in education.
juggy4711 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2013, 01:02   #14
marvin
sci-fi nut
 
marvin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: greentown ind.
Posts: 1,002
It should be clear to anyone that believes in the bible, that the earth is both 4.5 billion years old and 6000 or whatever number of years old.

When God made Adam he made him as an adult. If you built a time machine and went back to 10 seconds after his creation you would think he was 20 or whatever number of years old not 10 second old. The earth was made in the same way newly created but looking old.
__________________

Free men own guns, slaves don't.
marvin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2013, 06:51   #15
GreenDrake
Rip Lips
 
GreenDrake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: North Idaho
Posts: 7,803
Did Adam have a belly button?

Seriously though, creationism flies in the face of reality, consistently. As I raise my son to be tolerant and respectful of people's religious beliefs, regardless of how they conflict with how I taught him to understand reality, there still are conflicts among children.

I live in a pretty conservative christian area, kids here are raised pretty fundie and hard corps, some to the point that a couple are not allowed to enter our home because we are not christian, which is kind of spooky to me. The kids challenge my son quite a bit, asking why he doesn't believe in god and telling him that he is going to hell. Seeds planted by their parents to instill fear of eternal damnation and the prophesy of a magical man in the sky watching over him.

My son is 9 and intelligent enough to tell them he respects their religion and that in criticizing him, they are in fact committing a sin of their own beliefs and to please just change the subject so they don't sin any further. It confounds some of them but my son holds fast that there are unknowns, but also that the reality of evolution, when chemistry became biology and the billions of years of proofs hold fast to actual reality, not imaginary mythological tales of talking snakes and a rib-woman in some fantasy garden where life began as a full grown adult.

I was raised catholic, and put through the system, schools and all, altar boy, guilt based religious indoctrination, the whole shabang. Only when I began to question the church did I become free of its grasp. I was told not to question, which made me question further.

I am ok with whatever you want to believe, to me it's like sports teams. You can be a fan of your team, and of course every other team is wrong, but yours, yours is the chosen team, the only REAL team and others are never going to see the light unless you convince them to root for YOUR team. That defines the arrogance of organized religion, that YOUR chosen path is the only one and the others are wrong. Organized religion is a complete facade to me. Believe what you want, raise your children with values morals and ethics of a good person, to do good, be kind, share happiness, but don't feed them fairy tales packed with guilt, fire and brimstone, that's no way to raise intelligent, productive members of society.
__________________
"Can you FLY, Bobby?"
P229 EDC
GreenDrake is offline   Reply With Quote

 
  
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 20:17.




Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 1,162
357 Members
805 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,672
Aug 11, 2014 at 2:31