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Old 04-19-2000, 19:04   #1
Tamara
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Hey, Tazz, how's the .223XR coming?

Just curious...

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10 Ring #2910, Wheelhouse #6254455, Club .40*&*, Top Guns *.357sig* club
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Old 04-20-2000, 07:26   #2
Tazz10m
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Still try'n to get it together Tam... I am getting my shop set up to do reloading and i am still "entertaining" (trying to figure out) the best way to set up the load...

Currently i am entertaining the idea of using a sabot so that the stock Glock barrels can be used, and tooling costs would be basically zilch... Since we are talking pistols here and relatively short ranges, i am thinking that accuracy may not suffer all that much... Also, with this set up it may be possible to get even higher velocities with even lower chamber pressures....

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Old 04-20-2000, 18:06   #3
OLDGLORY
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i thought we agreed it would be in a 45super case. and call it a {22-45} SOUNDS OLD WESTERN.
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Old 04-20-2000, 23:30   #4
TED
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You know, we could kneck the .45 or 10mm down to .30 and then use off the shelf sabots to go .223. I know some people who use Ruger Revolvers in .30 Carbine with the sabots and .223 projectiles and it is "interesting".

BTW, there is a company that specializes in making sabots. I bet they could make 10mm-.223 sabots for us and then all we would have to do is load development, no gun/barrel mods.

TED

[This message has been edited by TED (edited 04-21-2000).]
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Old 04-21-2000, 04:41   #5
Tazz10m
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Ted, if you figure out what that company is, let me know and i'll call them and find out...

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The only thing that should come between you, and any gun... is comfort... Get Agrip!

Your first and best weapon and/or tool is your mind.

Warning, anything I write is intended to manipulate you into using your mind.
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Old 04-21-2000, 05:20   #6
HocKaLugi
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I wonder how well a sabot will hold crimp and feed in a semiauto pistol. My guess would be not too well.
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Old 04-21-2000, 18:46   #7
CastleBravo
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Are you guys talking about 10mm Auto or an M68 105mm tank cannon? The 10 Ring

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Old 04-21-2000, 07:57   #8
poochg
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Well Alrighty then, here you go Tazz!
http://www.eabco.com/sabot01.html
http://jdc.family-biz.com/index.html

While these companies may not manufacture, certainly they can point their finger for you! Also the Remington techs that worked on their sabots can probably refer to others in the industry, assuming they are still with Remington!


[This message has been edited by poochg (edited 04-21-2000).]
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Old 04-22-2000, 10:04   #9
Tazz10m
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Thanks Poochg!



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The only thing that should come between you, and any gun... is comfort... Get Agrip!

Your first and best weapon and/or tool is your mind.

Warning, anything I write is intended to manipulate you into using your mind.
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Old 04-22-2000, 14:15   #10
TenMan
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Hi Tazz

If there's anything I can do to help, I'd be glad to. I only live about 30 miles north of you, and I have a pretty good setup here for chronographing loads, measuring pressure rings, etc.

Miss Kay and I are taking off in the RV for about 3 weeks, going down to Navajo country. We'll be back about mid-May.

Cheers,

TenMan
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Old 04-22-2000, 22:27   #11
Tazz10m
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Cool TenMan, Thanks!

Have fun on your trip!

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The only thing that should come between you, and any gun... is comfort... Get Agrip!

Your first and best weapon and/or tool is your mind.

Warning, anything I write is intended to manipulate you into using your mind.
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Old 04-24-2000, 19:53   #12
g20g20
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keep up the good work and maybe soon our collective dreams will be realized. Sign me up for testing when your ready to begin the frankenstein experimentation. Should be interesting.
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Old 05-03-2000, 18:50   #13
g20g20
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hey tazz, you have to provide regular updates or we will think you are not working on it.
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Old 05-06-2000, 14:38   #14
NJW in AZ
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We hashed this exact subject out quite a while ago on one of the Glock E-mail lists when the .224 Boz first came out. I think making anything close to the .224 boz will result in a law suit and no one will touch it including reamer makers, barrel makers, smiths etc.

I think the Sabot is the only way to go to test this theroy out. It is possible to make sabots out of solid plastic. A lathe is definaltly needed and possibly a mill. I have seen it done and it wouldn't be that hard with the right stuff. If anyone wants to discuss this project, mail me at wegner@theriver.com

NJW
n gh x j
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Old 05-06-2000, 17:42   #15
poochg
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Ahem, ok, I'm willing to give em a try!

NJW in AZ, you never asked me: (what kind of hash were you guys using?)


There are three choices as I see it; (with regards to using Sabots)

1. 10mm to 224 Sabots that fits right in the 10mm case and we just shove a 224 point in, change some springs lock and load. (Tazz is has these in the development phase by now, I'm sure, Tazz is a consument reloader and wildacatter he has been all over this project from the get go....)

2. We can use the 9X25 brass, A; neck it down to 30 caliber and use the 30/224 sabots already available or B; neck it all the way down to 224! (my personal favorite)

3. We can use 7.62 by 25 or 30 mauser brass and use the sabots (30cal to 223) or neck them down to 224. I think these will cycle from the breach side, but not as perfect as #2 above. (brass has less capacity) No problem here to get a company to make us a barrel or reamer and dies.

The only one that doesn’t require reamers for barrels and new dies and the like is #1. Although I believe we could get barrels, we just change the neck angle, this is an American thing... Were not going to have some English company dictate what kind of wildcat cartridges we can develop. There are plenty of American gun smiths and machinists that are not going to stand for that!

The best accuracy will come from #2 plan B where we neck it down to 224. 9 X 25 Dillion Brass is made by Starline and it is as strong as 10mm. Nobody is going to stop us from going to 10mm to 30 caliber, heck even the smiths that signed the non- compete/disclosure would build our barrels and reamers and dies on that one for us. (#2 plan A)

Were at a standstill right now, because Tazz is seting up his reloader and entertaining! Can I get another Margarita please..........
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Old 05-07-2000, 10:33   #16
Tazz10m
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The right amount of reloading hash in proper proportion is required to get a round set just right...

The really cool advantage to the sabot path is that virtually any bullet could be fired out of a stock barrel. The trick is going to be finding a sabot that is optimally designed for accuracy as well as velocity. I have not found any yet. If we cant find any, then they will have to be designed and made.

If anyone finds any .40 sabots let us know. There is one company i know of that makes sabots... i still have to talk to them.

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The only thing that should come between you, and any gun... is comfort... Get Agrip!

Your first and best weapon and/or tool is your mind.

Warning, anything I write is intended to manipulate you into using your mind.
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Old 05-07-2000, 11:05   #17
HiCap
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I wonder about accuracy from a 223 bullet fired from a sabot in a 10mm barrel. My concern is that the twist rate may be too slow to stabilize the bullets well.

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Old 05-11-2000, 16:43   #18
Tazz10m
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HiCap, very good point... it seems though that the rate of twist is just about right... we will just have to test to find out...

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The only thing that should come between you, and any gun... is comfort... Get Agrip!

Your first and best weapon and/or tool is your mind.

Warning, anything I write is intended to manipulate you into using your mind.
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Old 05-13-2000, 11:02   #19
STYX
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hey tazz...

i know NOTHING about reloading, but i would love to help anyway i can. ...research, phone calls... whatever. just let me know.


-John

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Old 05-22-2000, 15:39   #20
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Hey Tazz ...

Just wanted to bring this back to the top before it ran-out of the 10 day cycle ...

Any new news ???
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Old 05-23-2000, 10:19   #21
Tazz10m
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"Progress" is being made... slow but sure... nothing to speak of yet though... The 10 Ring

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The only thing that should come between you, and any gun... is comfort... Get Agrip!

Your first and best weapon and/or tool is your mind.

Warning, anything I write is intended to manipulate you into using your mind.
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Old 05-26-2000, 22:43   #22
Tamara
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Re: sabots

Are we looking for some kind of long range accuracy? If so, due to the phenomenon known as "tip-off", sabots probably aren't the way to go.

If, on the other hand, all we're seeking is screaming 25yd hole-poking velocity, then sabots would be the hot ticket for quick & dirty load development...

------------------
Tamara's House of Weapons: If we can't kill it, it's immortal.
10 Ring #2910, Wheelhouse #6254455, Club .40*&*, Top Guns *.357sig* club
10mm: It's not the size of the Dawg in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog!


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Old 05-27-2000, 04:12   #23
Rusty Phillips
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1st of all - check this out http://www.leitner-wise.com/lw782sx24.html

looks like a 10mm or 45 case necked to 30 cal.

(their site was down sat. am - keep checking them)

2nd of all - instead of having a custom barrel made for your first prototype - why not get a cheap POS CZ 52 chambered in 7.62x25mm?

load it up with saboted 22's (i think theyd have to be short bullets - a 55-62 grain .224 is looong!!!)

and blast away

I think you could buy a complete CZ52 for less than the cost of one custom barrel for your Glock

you might know someone who already has one.

you might not even need the sabots & 22 bullets - according to Chuck Karwan - the 7.62x25mm already knifes thru level 3A Kevlar like it is butter - a high speed 30 cal might be just the ticket

How bout a 7.62x25mm barrel for the G20?

will a 7.62x25mm cartridge fit in a G20 magazine? COAL on the 7.62 is 1.36" - Rim dia is 0.390" COAL on the 10mm is 1.26" - Rim dia is 0.424"

my G20 mag will barely hold in an empty mauser case - the lips are tight enuf.

dont know about the length though

if it could be done - 7.62 Mauser ammo is available pretty cheaply, and with a 22 sabot would be fun to play with


[This message has been edited by Rusty Phillips (edited 05-27-2000).]
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Old 05-27-2000, 07:20   #24
poochg
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Yea, I have been waiting for Leitner to release the round to no avial. If it comes out, I for one intend to neck it down to .223! The lead guy at Leitner apparantly worked on the Boz project with those gun control Brits and CD has nothing good to say about Leitner, says they have no insurance flying by the seat of their pants. My question is does Leitner believe in the RKBA, cause CD sure as hell does not!!!

Tamara, Can I have both...(smile) I would like at least decent enough off hand accuracy to pop some varmits with a 6 or 7" barrel and spring change out of my G20 at ohhh at least 75 to 100 yds. This would make such a trail Gun, a super 22 and a 10mm, the woods would be safe again....and it could all be concealed!

I see nothing wrong with having the means to even the playing field when bad guys dress in kevlar suits, its just not common and scares the government types. Thats just not my main goal, I'm a sportsman first!

I prefer the 10mm case, it has more capacity and was designed for higher working pressures. Decent 223 velocities could be acheived out of the 7.62 X 25 Tokerav. I would consider Leitners case in either caliber 30 or 223 but we dont have it yet! Barrels could be made in the 30 cal from Bar Stow.

Soooo right now......all our hopes and dreams rest on the shoulders of our leader, Tazz the industrialist/inventor/craftsmen, who is very close to cracking this thing with sabots. Soon I look forward to little boxes of 10mm to 223 plastic sabots showing up on my doorstep, in designer colors no less!

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Old 05-27-2000, 10:14   #25
Rusty Phillips
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that link to JD Components is pretty informative

http://jdc.family-biz.com/loadinfo/3...30carbine.html

a 30 carbine w/12.2 grains of AA#9 can push a 55 grain saboted bullet to 2400+ fps out of a 9 inch barrel????

that beats the BOZ doesnt it?

of course winchester says the regular 110 grain carbine bullet does 1790 fps / 783 foot lbs out of a 10 inch barrel - so is that really all that impressive?

for comparison - 10mm - 17.5 grains AA#9 w/135 grain bullet give 1507 fps/680 ft lbs (Hndldrs Dgst 1996)

assuming you dont loose too much capacity when you neck it down you ought to be able to get at least 12 grains into your new case



[This message has been edited by Rusty Phillips (edited 05-27-2000).]
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