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Old 08-01-2004, 17:48   #1
PMMA97
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Gun Permit Refund ?

Refund gun permit fees-Chavez

Updated 02:11pm (Mla time) Aug 01, 2004
By Philip Tubeza
Inquirer News Service

FORMER Solicitor General Francisco Chavez has asked the Supreme Court to reverse its decision last month upholding the nationwide gun ban that President Macapagal-Arroyo imposed in 2003.
In a 30-page motion, Chavez also asked the Philippine National Police to refund the fees totaling P128 million that gun owners had paid for the Permits to Carry Firearms Outside of Residence (PTCFOR) which the PNP revoked after the gun ban was implemented.

"Upon the revocation of their PTCFORs, petitioner and other gun owners did not get anything in return for the fees they paid to the government. They shelled out money for the required fees and the government, by canceling the PTCFORs, gobbled up the gun-owners' money," Chavez said.

"This is plain and simple robbery, a fraud. Surely, this cannot be allowed. It was as if the petitioner paid for nothing at all. The PNP has not offered to refund payments made by the gun owners. Is it now entitled to keep the P128 million in gun owners' money?" he said.

Chavez said there were an estimated 32,000 holders of PTCFORs who paid a minimum of P4,000 each for permits-to-carry firearms before the gun ban was implemented.

In its June 9 ruling, the high tribunal unanimously dismissed Chavez's petition challenging the gun ban, saying that carrying firearms was not a constitutionally protected right.

The President imposed the gun ban in January 2003 and ordered PNP chief Director General Hermogenes Ebdane Jr. to cancel existing PTCFORs and suspend the issuance of these permits.

Ebdane then issued a set of guidelines to implement the gun ban.

However, Chavez insisted that citizens had the basic right to defend themselves, noting that a gun ban did not deter criminals from committing crimes.

"Even if the Philippine Constitution does not expressly grant the right to bear arms, citizens have the inherent right to protect their lives, which cannot be taken away by any law, much less mere implementing guidelines," Chavez said.

He cited a study made by lawyer Roy M. Manuel Villasor of the National Defense College, which showed that a gun ban had "no significant effect" on the country's total crime volume (TCV).

Villasor noted that despite a six-month gun ban during the 1998 elections, the TCV still rose by .69 percent.
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Old 08-01-2004, 21:32   #2
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I agree with Chavez 100%. The PTCFOR owners should be given refunds on what they paid. It is only now that I realized how much is the total amount paid by all PTCFOR owners (and in millions). That is really one plain robbery. Who benefitted from it? We haven't even considered those people who "facilitated" the transactions.
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Old 08-01-2004, 21:36   #3
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Now i need to look for my old PTC ID and receipt...just in case.
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Old 08-01-2004, 23:11   #4
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In regards to those who benefitted from the non-refund of the PTCFORs, it's the government particularly the PNP since the funds are deposited in the bank and considered as revenues. But I agree with Chavez and it was even suggested in DEBATE-GMA 7 during the hot debates at that time when the licenses were suspended that a refund should be made even by those who are against guns.

Up to now, I can't see the relationship of curtailing criminality by restraining law abiding citizens from carrying guns.
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Old 08-01-2004, 23:30   #5
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I agree with you cznayr. Statistical results no significant difference in criminality with or without gun bans.
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Old 08-02-2004, 00:14   #6
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Great, in addition maybe they could also look into the exhorbitant pricing of current PTCFOR's and see who really benefits from it.
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Old 08-02-2004, 00:23   #7
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Doc,
the only problem is that no matter how much you shell out for the processing of thse PTCFORs, the official receipt would only be 4THplus. If you have paid 8k, 10k or 12k for the permit, only 4k is really needed for the processing.. the rest is grease money. If we could only put a stop to this practice, then we could have affordable PTCFORs. Then again, I think I'd have better luck trying trying to re-arrange the orbit of the earth around the sun
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Old 08-02-2004, 00:33   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by cznayr
Then again, I think I'd have better luck trying trying to re-arrange the orbit of the earth around the sun
Yes, unfortunately ;Q .
They should really look into revising the whole scheme and license the individual and not the guns. More efficient that way, we can also tailor our carry options as the situations dictate......maybe in a million years ;f
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Old 08-02-2004, 01:33   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by doctabako
Yes, unfortunately ;Q .
They should really look into revising the whole scheme and license the individual and not the guns. More efficient that way, we can also tailor our carry options as the situations dictate......maybe in a million years ;f
True. LTO doesn't require a driver's license for every car you own, right? And to think a vehicle does even more damage to lives and property...;Q ;f
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Old 08-02-2004, 02:24   #10
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Instead of refund, it would be more ideal if the PNP FED simply re-issue the PTCFOR to holders/bearers for the remaining indicated validity period.
If there was six months left in the PTCFOR, then PNP FED could just issue a new id to the bearer valid for six months, granting that PTCFOR have a validity of one year.
They are issuing PTCFORs now anyway under new guidelines, i think for 12k to 15k.
It will be unfair if the fees shall be simply refunded because only the receipted portion will be covered, not the portion which went to grease money.
Considering government's cash position, a refund no matter how small or big is highly improbable.
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Old 08-02-2004, 06:24   #11
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What does the government do with our 4k anyways? Kahit 4k nga, outrageous na yung price na yun! Kung i convert mo yan into US$ (assuming na 1US$ = 50PhP), e US$80 na yun! E sa ibang states e between US$20-40 lang (PhP1000-2000 using the same conversion, 1US$ = 50PhP) ang binabayaran nila for a CCW, and its for the person pa, and not for each firearm! :( :( Naman oo, tapos hindi pa ibabalik pera natin! Wala ba sa constitution natin yung rights to bear arms?
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Old 08-02-2004, 12:26   #12
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the suggestion given by brod jundeleon is i think the most feasible. but if i may add, i think it is better if the PNP will just give a 50% discount on all previous PTCFOR holders when they apply for a new PTCFOR.

a refund is next to impossible since a law is needed to be passed by congress to authorize the PNP to release the money. ang gobyerno natin mabilis kumamig ng pera mula sa ating mga mamamayan, pero mabagal maglabas pag kinakailangan.
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Old 08-02-2004, 12:35   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kiddo
Wala ba sa constitution natin yung rights to bear arms?
unfortunately kiddo, we dont have a similar "the right to keep and bear arms" provision as found in the u.s. constitution. ang masaklap nito, ang constitution natin ay patterned after the u.s. constitution pero mukhang napaka-conservative ng mga lawmakers natin kaya hindi nila kinopya ang 2nd amendment ng u.s.

ang dami-daming provision na dapat kopyahin, yung 2nd amendment pa ang hindi kinopya.:( even the americans have been encountering problems with their 2nd amendment law to the point that the various u.s. states have enacted their own gun laws that ran counter to the 2nd amendment.
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