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Old 04-08-2005, 19:34   #1
Hesparus
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Gun Kata

Kurt Wimmer's "Equilibrium" has been mentioned already. In all seriousness, does anybody practice any kind of kata with guns? For those of us who practice weapons kata in the first place, why shouldn't we treat firearms like any other weapon and practice kata with them?
I dabbled a while ago with replacing a sword with a gun when practicing my iaijutsu kata. Because drawing the sword/gun is integral to the art I figured it would be usable in today's self-defense environment. It also occured to me that the kata "Stick and Knife" (from kosho-ryu kempo) does not have to be done with a stick and a knife. You can effectively replace the knife with a gun and practice short-range gun fighting and then replace the stick with a knife for even shorter range.
I understand that this idea sounds dumb, so I welcome your ridicule.

- Chris
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Old 04-09-2005, 06:54   #2
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There is definitely something to be said for practicing the drawing of a pistol or the shouldering of a long gun as a kata. It is known that when using the so called african carry (muzzle down rifle behind shoulder weak side) a long gun can with practice be deployed just a wee bit slower than a pistol from a strong side holster.

Jeff Hall has developed a "martial art" centered around the use of firearms. My instructor, Steve Mc Daniel (who helped inspire the stryle)is an associate of his, I can ask him more about this.

In addition to the presentation of the weapon, use of the firearm as an impact weapon would also be worht studying in arefined manner.

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Old 04-09-2005, 06:57   #3
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http://www.dps.state.ak.us/apsc/asp/hall.asp

This is Jeff Hall.

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Old 04-10-2005, 15:15   #4
Joshua M. Smith
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I apologize for the poor picture quality.

Josh <><

(edited to try to find a clearer pic)
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Old 04-11-2005, 18:06   #5
Hesparus
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TED -

I looked up Jeff Hall on the internet and I didn't find much (but I really liked what I DID find). Does he have a website and/or sell books or training videos?

- Chris
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Old 04-11-2005, 22:01   #6
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Honestly, I don't know. I only know of him through Steve Mc Daniel of Alaska Tactical. Steve knows him very well though and trains with him. You can call Steve at Alaska Tactical 907-338-3458 or contact him via e-mail (I don't know his business e-mail just his personal which I won't give out) which you can get off his website www.alaskatactical.com

I can tell you that Jeff Hall work with the NRA Law Enforcement Instructor Training Programs.

I have also trained unde Ted Smith of APD SWAT and formerly ???(I heard that he stopped, I'll have to aks him)a full instructor at Gunsite. Steve is also a Gunsite instructor.

I recommend both Steve and Ted very heartily. Steve travels, I don;t know if Ted does. I doubt it, due to his full time APD obligations.

If you wanted to visit Alaska in the summer, there is not time like the present, Bill Jean (of Morrigan Consulting) is coming up this summer to run a rifle/carbine class with Steve. Come to Anchorage, see Alaska in the summer, do some fishing, take a rifle class with two world class famous instructors...what's not to like?

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Old 04-11-2005, 22:03   #7
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The rifle class with Bill Jean is not on the schedule at either website, you have to call and ask or e-mail one of them.

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Old 04-12-2005, 05:20   #8
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I've thought about this as well. Since handguns have pretty much replaced swords and the like as personal weapons, it seems that a handgun-based martial art would be cool and maybe even useful.

Another movie to check out is Ghost Dog: Way of the Samurai. It's about a hitman who follows the samurai bushido code and stuff. It's been a while since I've seen it, but I remember that he uses handguns in a prety graceful, martial-arts type of way. He used two handguns, but not in the normal, both blasting in the same direction style, which I found interesting.
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Old 04-12-2005, 11:02   #9
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Re: Gun Kata

Quote:
Originally posted by Hesparus
Kurt Wimmer's "Equilibrium" has been mentioned already. In all seriousness, does anybody practice any kind of kata with guns? For those of us who practice weapons kata in the first place, why shouldn't we treat firearms like any other weapon and practice kata with them?
I dabbled a while ago with replacing a sword with a gun when practicing my iaijutsu kata. Because drawing the sword/gun is integral to the art I figured it would be usable in today's self-defense environment. It also occured to me that the kata "Stick and Knife" (from kosho-ryu kempo) does not have to be done with a stick and a knife. You can effectively replace the knife with a gun and practice short-range gun fighting and then replace the stick with a knife for even shorter range.
I understand that this idea sounds dumb, so I welcome your ridicule.

- Chris
This is silly, but it makes my point, so bear with me.

Unofficial definition of Kata: Stringing tecniques together and practicing them over and over.

Hence we could call anything we do over and over a Kata. i.e. The going to the mailbox Kata. Fiqure out what we think is the best way to go get the mail and practice it over and over. If during that trip to the mail box something else comes up, we find the best way to deal with that distraction. (alternative bunkai)

When you go to the range and practice with your guns (say an IDPA type scenario) then in a sense, that is a gun Kata.

In Isshinryu Karate we have an empty hand Kata called Kusanku. We also use the very same Kata with Sai to make a weapon Kata.

First you learn the empty hand Kata. (correctly). Then you can pick up just about anything (gun, knife, cane, stick, ball point pen, etc.) and it becomes a lethal weapon. Most confrontations (including gun) will be at empty hand range anyway. (or close to it)

The key to all this is knowing your basic technique. Too many students want to take shortcuts and not put in the work to learn the basics. They reason they will just "pick up a stick" or "draw my gun". What happens if there is no stick or you don't have time to draw your gun? That is why we teach empty hand first.

Anyway, back to your original question, It certainly wouldn't hurt to add gun bunkai to any and all of your basic Kata. After all: If you can do it with your bare hands, you can certainly do it with a weapon in your hand. Just another tool in your toolbox.

I guess my "old school" is showing again.

Probably more than you wanted to hear from me but it gave me an opportunity to rant a little. For that I thank you.

sensei
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Old 04-13-2005, 06:25   #10
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Great input, Sensei.
I do see your point about how weapons techniques and kata shouldn't be any different from unarmed techniques and kata. However, I think this only holds up to a point. Every weapon is different and must be treated differently. For example, the dynamics of a yawara are very different from the dynamics of a yari. Although the principles of their use can be derived from the same style and movements, I don't believe that the same kata would teach one the use of both. I do believe, though, that the same group of kata can be used for multiple weapons (I mean, who only practices one kata?). In my original post, I talked about using preexisting kata for several different weapon combinations, some including guns, as opposed to creating whole new katas just for guns (although I still don't think this is such a bad idea, as guns are unique among weapons for a variety of reasons).
I'd love to hear more of your rants, if you've got them.

- Chris
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Old 04-13-2005, 11:51   #11
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I think it depends on whether or not you look at it as a martial art. I don't see why it couldn't be, yet most people I've seen don't consider it as such.

Many people don't think that a gun "counts" because it's "point and shoot", "doesn't take skill", and so forth. Course, most of us know different, but still don't consider it an art form.

Considering martial arts throughout history is largely based on the technology of the time (with regards to weaponry) I don't see why that should suddenly just stop after firearms became widespread. Rather, I would have thought it would adapt and a martial art would incorporate it.
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