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Old 06-09-2005, 15:29   #1
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One-Shot Drops Surviving the Myth

http://www.rrmemphis.com/myth.pdf
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Old 06-09-2005, 15:31   #2
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What stands out to me is that 10% of these guys were killed with their own weapon... :(
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Old 06-09-2005, 16:09   #3
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http://www.fbi.gov/publications/leb...leb.htm#page_15


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In the authors’ ongoing study of violence against law enforcement officers, they have examined several cases where officers used large-caliber hand guns with limited effect displayed by the offenders. In one case, the subject attacked the officer with a knife. The officer shot the individual four times in the chest; then, his weapon malfunctioned. The offender continued to walk toward the officer. After the officer cleared his weapon, he fired again and struck the subject in the chest. Only then did the offender drop the knife. This individual was hit five times with 230-grain, .45-caliber hollow-point ammunition and never fell to the ground. The offender later stated, “The wounds felt like bee stings.”

In another case, officers fired six .40-caliber, hollow-point rounds at a subject who pointed a gun at them. Each of the six rounds hit the individual with no visible effect. The seventh round severed his spinal cord, and the offender fell to the ground, dropping his weapon. This entire firefight was captured by several officers’ in-car video cameras.
Can't say it enough...handguns SUCK at stopping people!
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Old 11-29-2013, 16:52   #4
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http://www.fbi.gov/publications/leb...leb.htm#page_15




Can't say it enough...handguns SUCK at stopping people!

Actually, the .45 ACP sucks as stopping power...a fact well known by anyone who's actually shot anything living with one.
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Old 12-19-2013, 01:07   #5
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Originally Posted by kilibreaux View Post
Actually, the .45 ACP sucks as stopping power...a fact well known by anyone who's actually shot anything living with one.
Take a 230gr hollow point to the chest and tell me how much it sucks.
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Old 12-24-2013, 20:31   #6
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1.) Most important factor in "stoping power" is SHOT PLACEMENT.
2.) There is virtually no measurable difference in "stoping power" between any major handgun caliber. All top tier defense loads produce the same relative damage to bodily structures. All the medical experts and trauma surgeons will attest to this.
3.) 9mm with a proven JHP is probably the most practical round for CCW/defensive handgun use, as you can get more lead on target faster, with better followup shot capability in less time, than you can using .45 ACP/.40/.357 SIG, etc. The additional increase of ammunition on tap in the mag, is a nice bonus!
4.) COM is a crapshoot and with the increased use of body armor used by perps, is less effective, unless striking the spinal column on a frontal shot or hitting the heart, etc. Put your rounds in the targets shoulder and pelvic girdle repeatedly, until your slide locks back or the target is down and ceases hostility. If you can make a CNS shot, take it.
5.) Kinetic energy and hydrostatic shock is BS. Temporary cavity is BS. The only thing you can count on ballisticily is perforating and destroying important vital structures of the body to end a threat. Caliber is meaningless, if you aren't hitting said vital structures.
6.) The only thing .40 and .45 have over 9mm, is increase in training costs, carry weight and recoil. One caveat, if limited to FMJ only, I do prefer the bigger .45 230 grain ball or the meplat flat nose .40. I got 500rds of 124 grain 9mm Goldot JHP, so that's what I'm sticking with- in a Gen 3 Glock 19 in nickel boron btw.
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Old 12-24-2013, 22:25   #7
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Originally Posted by bnlchris18 View Post
1.) Most important factor in "stoping power" is SHOT PLACEMENT.
2.) There is virtually no measurable difference in "stoping power" between any major handgun caliber. All top tier defense loads produce the same relative damage to bodily structures. All the medical experts and trauma surgeons will attest to this.
3.) 9mm with a proven JHP is probably the most practical round for CCW/defensive handgun use, as you can get more lead on target faster, with better followup shot capability in less time, than you can using .45 ACP/.40/.357 SIG, etc. The additional increase of ammunition on tap in the mag, is a nice bonus!
4.) COM is a crapshoot and with the increased use of body armor used by perps, is less effective, unless striking the spinal column on a frontal shot or hitting the heart, etc. Put your rounds in the targets shoulder and pelvic girdle repeatedly, until your slide locks back or the target is down and ceases hostility. If you can make a CNS shot, take it.
5.) Kinetic energy and hydrostatic shock is BS. Temporary cavity is BS. The only thing you can count on ballisticily is perforating and destroying important vital structures of the body to end a threat. Caliber is meaningless, if you aren't hitting said vital structures.
6.) The only thing .40 and .45 have over 9mm, is increase in training costs, carry weight and recoil. One caveat, if limited to FMJ only, I do prefer the bigger .45 230 grain ball or the meplat flat nose .40. I got 500rds of 124 grain 9mm Goldot JHP, so that's what I'm sticking with- in a Gen 3 Glock 19 in nickel boron btw.
1. I don't think you'll find many who will dispute shot placement is paramount in stopping a threat.

2.
Quote:
There is virtually no measurable difference in "stoping power" between any major handgun caliber. All top tier defense loads produce the same relative damage to bodily structures. All the medical experts and trauma surgeons will attest to this.
I really don't know what the term "relative damage" means when some calibers demonstrably produce greater total injury for a given shot, and I doubt all medical experts unanimously agree on anything.

3. The 9mm appears to be the most popular duty caliber for self-defense, but I can put .357sig rounds just as fast and accurately into targets as I do with my 9mm, after learning that every system has its own rhythm, for want of a better term. The .45ACPs I've shot seem only slightly more difficult. I was surprised learning that many champion shooters won their competitions shooting .40S&W since that's been the hardest caliber for me to control.

4. Even a novice like me knows not to aim for the shoulder instead of COM. I might only have the opportunity to put a single round on target before stopping the threat, and aiming for a peripheral area is truly a crap shoot, as you put it.

5.
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Caliber is meaningless, if you aren't hitting said vital structures.
Ergo, why on earth would one aim at peripheral areas?

6. I think you've got a great gun/ammo combination and since you've thoroughly put that system through the proper testing who is anyone to dispute your choice? I certainly won't.
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Old 12-24-2013, 23:09   #8
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Originally Posted by bnlchris18 View Post
1.) Most important factor in "stoping power" is SHOT PLACEMENT.
While true, it's probably this is VERY difficult to control in a dynamic gunfight, as the perp is not likely going to just stand there and let you take a carefully aim shot. Almost by definition, if you're involved in a self defense shooting, your target is actively attacking you, or someone else in close proximity to you. This is not going to make it easy to get precise shots. This is especially true for civilians who don't get the more advanced training that LEOs (well, at least some LEOs) get.
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2.) There is virtually no measurable difference in "stoping power" between any major handgun caliber. All top tier defense loads produce the same relative damage to bodily structures. All the medical experts and trauma surgeons will attest to this.
I've seen posts by people directly refuting this. There was a post by a coroner that went around a few years ago that specifically contradicted this.
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3.) 9mm with a proven JHP is probably the most practical round for CCW/defensive handgun use, as you can get more lead on target faster, with better followup shot capability in less time, than you can using .45 ACP/.40/.357 SIG, etc. The additional increase of ammunition on tap in the mag, is a nice bonus!
While I don't have a problem with 9mm as a self defense cartridge, I think .40 and .45 have better combinations of penetration and expansion. It's that combination that establishes the incapacitation capability of the round. Round for round .45 has the best combination, but .40 gives a better ammo capacity for the same size gun, while still having a significant advantage in expansion and penetration over 9mm. So that's my preference.
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4.) COM is a crapshoot and with the increased use of body armor used by perps, is less effective, unless striking the spinal column on a frontal shot or hitting the heart, etc. Put your rounds in the targets shoulder and pelvic girdle repeatedly, until your slide locks back or the target is down and ceases hostility. If you can make a CNS shot, take it.
The COM has the highest concentration of vital structures over the largest target. I would never trust a shoulder or pelvic shot to stop an attacker. A good solid head shot should, but that can be very difficult to make
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5.) Kinetic energy and hydrostatic shock is BS. Temporary cavity is BS. The only thing you can count on ballisticily is perforating and destroying important vital structures of the body to end a threat.
Agreed at handgun velocities
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Caliber is meaningless, if you aren't hitting said vital structures.
Somewhat agreed, but a larger caliber = larger expanded diameter = larger chance of cutting something vital
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6.) The only thing .40 and .45 have over 9mm, is increase in training costs, carry weight and recoil. One caveat, if limited to FMJ only, I do prefer the bigger .45 230 grain ball or the meplat flat nose .40. I got 500rds of 124 grain 9mm Goldot JHP, so that's what I'm sticking with- in a Gen 3 Glock 19 in nickel boron btw.
I think that's an assumption on your part, and has never been proven.
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Old 12-25-2013, 20:07   #9
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Take a 230gr hollow point to the chest and tell me how much it sucks.
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Old 01-31-2014, 18:59   #10
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Some of you have refuted my points, allow me to elaborate. This article addresses why the pelvic and shoulder girdle is more effective than traditional COM shots, at least in terms of a Military context.

http://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/2...and-the-glock/

Also, top tier defensive JHP ammo, 9mm, .40, .45, all have similar expansion reliability in tissue medium and the overall difference in expansion is negligible. I will admit here, that in favor of the .40, most if not all factory ammo is loaded hot with good results on target, albeit with a sharper recoil impulse, and slower split times, period. 9mm is more load specific, in that to compete with it's bigger cousins, it needs to be loaded in a +p+ format with a proven JHP. I don't care if your a surgeon and a split time master with a .357 SIG or a .45, you will always be faster, more accurate and put more lead on target with more capacity with the least recoil, with a 9mm.

Logically, albeit you have to use the best loads, the 9mm is superior to the other common autoloader handgun rounds for defensive use and ultimately, war. The .45 FMJ has negligibly more "stopping power" than 9mm FMJ, and both are poor performers. The .45 JHP has marginally better expansion and more mass on target, but at the expense of single stack 6-8 rd platforms, or larger and harder to conceal double stack designs. The .40 is a bastardized design by smith and wesson, in an attempt to solve a problem that never was. More recoil than 9mm and .45 ACP, with less stopping power than the big bore, and less capacity than 9mm. 1mm more diameter and a small increase in crushed tissue is not worth the increase in training costs, and longer time for follow up shots.

I do love that .45 ACP though, for two reasons, nostalgia and suppressed use with a can. Also, like .40, the .45 ACP isn't really load specific, and while the FMJ 230 grain ball only has a small increase in terminal performance over 9mm, in warfare, I'll take whatever I can get. As a civilian, with some of the best rounds in my mags that money can buy, the 9mm is superior in almost every single category vs it'd bigger cousins.
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Old 11-29-2013, 16:57   #11
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http://www.fbi.gov/publications/leb...leb.htm#page_15




Can't say it enough...handguns SUCK at stopping people!

Yet ANOTHER reason "limited penetration" is a sucker play! bullets that "over" penetrate a human torso have a MUCH better chance of snicking SOMETHING along the spinal column than big blobs puttering along slow enough to be snagged with a catcher's mitt.
The .45 ACP SUCKS for penetration...this is based on what the REAL world proves not armchair discourse. The .40 is certainly far, FAR better, and the 9mm is wonderful for punching holes clean through as long as its ballistic potential is not limited by thinly jacketed, soft-lead core spuds!
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Old 06-09-2005, 16:17   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by turbonatr
http://www.fbi.gov/publications/leb...leb.htm#page_15




Can't say it enough...handguns SUCK at stopping people!
No doubt, that's why you cannot just shoot someone once. You've GOT to shoot until the perp is no longer a threat. One or two shots to the chest MAY not be enough to get the job done and there are too many variables. Some to consider, some that can't be worked into the equation until AFTER.
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Old 11-11-2007, 02:44   #13
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No doubt, that's why you cannot just shoot someone once. You've GOT to shoot until the perp is no longer a threat. One or two shots to the chest MAY not be enough to get the job done and there are too many variables. Some to consider, some that can't be worked into the equation until AFTER.
What i would do is shoot the guy in the head if i shoot him in the chest more than 2 times and he is still standing.
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Old 11-19-2007, 15:29   #14
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What i would do is shoot the guy in the head if i shoot him in the chest more than 2 times and he is still standing.
The head is a crappy target. You have to put your hits in the ocular cavity for it to be effective.

Center mass body shots drop the blood pressure to the brain, which is what stops people from being a threat.

Headshots are a last resort and require carefully placed shots - otherwise, you risk doing no damage. See the Miami shootout details where Maddox (sp, IIRC) was shot in the face TWICE - his CHEEKBONES stopped handgun rounds.
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Old 12-22-2007, 22:56   #15
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The head is a crappy target. You have to put your hits in the ocular cavity for it to be effective.

Center mass body shots drop the blood pressure to the brain, which is what stops people from being a threat.

Headshots are a last resort and require carefully placed shots - otherwise, you risk doing no damage. See the Miami shootout details where Maddox (sp, IIRC) was shot in the face TWICE - his CHEEKBONES stopped handgun rounds.
It is not hard to shoot someone in the head at close range.Im not talking about long range shots and also not talking about shooting people in the face just the head.
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Old 12-27-2007, 09:20   #16
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Headshots are a last resort and require carefully placed shots - otherwise, you risk doing no damage. See the Miami shootout details where Maddox (sp, IIRC) was shot in the face TWICE - his CHEEKBONES stopped handgun rounds.
If you actually see the Miami shootout details, you will find out the two hits actually took Maddox out of the fight (even though they did not kill him immediately, he definitely was not a factor in the fight--Platt did all the damage).
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Old 12-27-2007, 15:44   #17
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It is not hard to shoot someone in the head at close range.Im not talking about long range shots and also not talking about shooting people in the face just the head.
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If you actually see the Miami shootout details, you will find out the two hits actually took Maddox out of the fight (even though they did not kill him immediately, he definitely was not a factor in the fight--Platt did all the damage).
Whats wrong with you people! Im talking about head shots at close range in a self defense situation when shooting them in the chest doesn't stop them. Of course shooting someone in the face would not stop them. Im talking about the HEAD not the face.
And you guys are saying stupid stuff about shooting in a certain part of the head in order to kill and that it is hard to shoot someone in the head and all that other crap. Shooting someone in the head would stop anyone.Come on people If you can't shoot someone in the head at close range then maybe you shouldn't own a gun or maybe have either your eyes or your gun sights checked.
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Old 11-19-2007, 18:28   #18
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What i would do is shoot the guy in the head if i shoot him in the chest more than 2 times and he is still standing.
If the head shot is the easy target for you, better for you to aim there to begin with. Aim for the very tip of the nose that way you can hit the brainstem.

However, I'm not that crack of a shot, so I'd go center mass personally. Under duress, given the choice of targeting an object the size of a cantelope or one that is the size of a basketball, I'll aim for the basketball.
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Old 11-19-2007, 20:11   #19
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If the head shot is the easy target for you, better for you to aim there to begin with. Aim for the very tip of the nose that way you can hit the brainstem.

However, I'm not that crack of a shot, so I'd go center mass personally. Under duress, given the choice of targeting an object the size of a cantelope or one that is the size of a basketball, I'll aim for the basketball.
That is the issue - the vunerable part of the head is the triangle from the corners of the eyes to the bottom of the nose - more like a 3x5 index card than a cantelope.
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Old 11-24-2007, 07:45   #20
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I previously posted this in another forum and will share it here....

This isn't a I know a friend of a friend story. I know both of the officers and have heard the details of this shooting from both....

A close friend and nephew of mine (narc) were involved in a shoot out in a mall parking lot. The BG exited his car firing one shot from his Glock 22and missing.... My friend fired one shot from 25 feet away hitting the BG in the center of the chest (Glock 21 200gr Gold Dot JHP +P) the BG fell on his back. My nephew stood over the BG while he did the death rattle (2 gasps of air) and the bad guy never moved again until the corner rolled him over. When he did there was a 200 grain slug that had exited his back and was lying there on the asphalt.

Many law enforcement agencies have recently switched to the 357 Sig. If I ever have to get shot, and have a choice, I'd prefer the 9mm over the 357 Sig, 40 or 45...
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Old 11-24-2007, 09:57   #21
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If the head shot is the easy target for you, better for you to aim there to begin with. Aim for the very tip of the nose that way you can hit the brainstem.

However, I'm not that crack of a shot, so I'd go center mass personally. Under duress, given the choice of targeting an object the size of a cantelope or one that is the size of a basketball, I'll aim for the basketball.
The region of the chest/thoracic cavity which is likely to cause blood drop to the point of incapacitation in 5-10 seconds (with a good expanding JHP in .40, .45, or .357 Sig) is considerably smaller than a basketball. Think of a 4-6" diameter sphere centered in the chest basically comprised of the heart and lung tissue sufficiently close to the heart that it is rich in vascular tissue. Hitting someone in the lungs too far from the heart is likely to cause much slower bleeding and a long time until they lose enough blood. Of course, shots that hit low have a decent chance of hitting the liver, but optimal damage here depends on energy transfer and temporary cavitation.

There are a lot of shot locations in the thoracic cavity where there simply is not enough vascular tissue to cause a rapid (5-10 seconds) bleed out.

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Old 11-29-2007, 21:19   #22
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Empty the gun

After reading alot of the post here I would have to say do what a highway patrol friend of mine said to do. Shoot till the gun goes click and if they are still moving put in another clip!
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Old 01-24-2008, 12:39   #23
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The region of the chest/thoracic cavity which is likely to cause blood drop to the point of incapacitation in 5-10 seconds (with a good expanding JHP in .40, .45, or .357 Sig) is considerably smaller than a basketball. Think of a 4-6" diameter sphere centered in the chest basically comprised of the heart and lung tissue sufficiently close to the heart that it is rich in vascular tissue. Hitting someone in the lungs too far from the heart is likely to cause much slower bleeding and a long time until they lose enough blood. Of course, shots that hit low have a decent chance of hitting the liver, but optimal damage here depends on energy transfer and temporary cavitation.

There are a lot of shot locations in the thoracic cavity where there simply is not enough vascular tissue to cause a rapid (5-10 seconds) bleed out.

Michael Courtney
Hello, Michael,

The CNS area is the area that works the best when hit by a typical handgun bullet... it is actually about 2" in diameter, and about 15" long... think cylinder-shaped area (long dimension going up-and-down) from the lower end of the heart (inferior portion of the heart) up to the top of the brain (superior portion of the brain)... with the spine and major nerves and arteries that run along the spine inside this imaginary cylinder shape...

Liver damage would be mostly from stretching and shearing forces (tearing) of this relatively fragile organ tisue...

In both cases, remote damage is not effective... you need actual damage primarily from direct contact from the bullet...

-Ron.
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Old 06-09-2005, 16:21   #24
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Excellent read, GoreLicks. Thanks!
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Old 06-09-2005, 17:04   #25
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Really Scary!!

And here I was hoping someday to see a "two-shot-stop" rating of different calibers. It's becoming obvious that would be no more effective than a "one-shot-stop" rating, whatever that is.

I guess for us civilians with our little 9mm pocket guns the best rule is still rule 3.....run away if you can!

Changes what I think about my .45 home defense pistol too.

Whatever!

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