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I have been a firearm instructor for more than 40 years, and a Minnesota Carry Permit instructor since our law was passed (I am also Communications Director for CCRN, the group that passed the Minnesota law).
But I also was lucky enough to have spent many years as a young child in my grandfather's courtroom - he was a famous criminal court judge in Chicago. And the most important thing he taught me was this: "People always ask 'what does the law say?' Well, pay no attention to those 'experts' who tell you what is or is not self-defense. At the end of the day, 12 people who don't know you and weren't there will decide what the law means. Because out there in the courtroom is where the law actually happens."
Bottom line?
Do your best to avoid conflict situations in the first place. Most self-defense claims fail because the defendant simply shouldn't have said what they said, did what they did, or went where they went, BEFORE the actual threat occured.
Pay attention to that little "threat alarm" we all have - it can warn you before things get out of control.
Carry only an UTTERLY reliable gun - that means a revolver, or an auto-pistol with a reputation for reliability (yes, like a Glock) and even then only after YOU have put a minimum of several hundred rounds through it, including at least several dozen rounds of the EXACT ammo you carry for defense.
Carry discreetly but in a manner that allows SECURITY and ACCESSABILITY - sorry, purses (or briefcases) are not the best solution. You should also practice drawing at home while you are dressed exactly as you dress for that time of year - here in Minnesota, where the Winter temps can hit double digits below zero, it can be an especially illuminating exercise.
Carry auto-loading pistols with a round in the chamber - no exceptions. And, while "topping off" the magazine is in currently in vogue, I know of at least two situations where police officer's guns jammed after the first shot...in both cases precisely because they crammed in that last round. Note: single stack mags as in 1911's or Kahrs can be topped off without a much chance of a jam, but seriously, unless you plan on being in an extended gunfight (in which case you would be carrying a rifle or shotgun), if 10 rounds, or 15, or 17 isn't enough, one more round is not going to make the difference.
Finally, the single biggest mistake defendants make in the wake of a self-defense situation is: TALKING TO POLICE WITHOUT HAVING THEIR ATTORNEY PRESENT. Other than saying "that man tried to kill me (us)" the most important thing to do is SHUT YOUR MOUTH. Say nothing about what happened. Sign nothing. Answer ALL questions with "Officer, I'll be happy to cooperate as soon as my attorney is here." If you are read your Miranda rights, and the Officer asks, "Sir, did you understand the rights we have just read to you?" Answer, "No, I don't." If you are asked what parts did you not understand, respond "I don't understand anything - that's why I'm waiting for my attorney."
Other than that, we can only do the best we can - we will seldom have more than a few seconds to react, and all perceptions will be altered. The woman who started this thread did just that - she actually did rather well under the (very scary) circumstances. Should she have said something in the way of a warning ("leave me alone" or "stay away from me")? Perhaps. But then again, we're just Monday Morning Quarterbacking.
So, be smart, be aware and you will likely be safe...or at least safer.
I personally carry IWB almost all the time... I always have a round in the chamber. However, I do on occasion carry in a maxpedition bag, also with one in the chamber. When I carry in my bag, I don't feel ready, and I really don't like carrying it that way unless I absolutely have to.
The other thing about even wearing a purse is that you are basically giving any attacker a handle in which to pull you down to the ground, especially if you wear it across your chest, I am not saying don't wear a purse, but for myself, a woman carrying a purse looks more vulnerable, no purse.. no purse snatchers..... reduce the risk, keep your hands free, reduce the steps you have to take to get to your firearm.
On board holster = stays where you put it, feels more an appendage than a pain (get a good one that fits you) and with practice you develop a reflex to get your firearm that will never fail you.
G25packer,
Thanks for taking the time to add to our forum discussion. Seems like we are starting to get some excellent dialogue.
-PDW
Quote:
Originally Posted by G26packer
I personally carry IWB almost all the time... I always have a round in the chamber. However, I do on occasion carry in a maxpedition bag, also with one in the chamber. When I carry in my bag, I don't feel ready, and I really don't like carrying it that way unless I absolutely have to.
The other thing about even wearing a purse is that you are basically giving any attacker a handle in which to pull you down to the ground, especially if you wear it across your chest, I am not saying don't wear a purse, but for myself, a woman carrying a purse looks more vulnerable, no purse.. no purse snatchers..... reduce the risk, keep your hands free, reduce the steps you have to take to get to your firearm.
On board holster = stays where you put it, feels more an appendage than a pain (get a good one that fits you) and with practice you develop a reflex to get your firearm that will never fail you.
"A Woman knows when she is being targeted or stalked. It is just a feeling we have"
When I took my CCW class about 2 years ago, the instructor talked alot
about going to court, and keeping yourself out of jail, if you ever have
to use your firearm. As the only woman in the class, he played out different jury scenarios, between a small woman in the class, and the guys.
He kept saying what will the jury see, when they see her, and what will
the jury see if they see one of the rest of you.
I called him and asked him to read this thread and offer me his .02.
He called me back today. He didn't seem to think drpdw overreacted.
He did offer a suggestion that might be helpful to anyone in a similar
situation, male or female. He said that if you feel like someone is following or stalking you, you should engage them in a conversation.
Turn around and say "may I help you". If they persist, say "hey, leave
me alone". If they still persist, you have clearly defined a threat.
It is at least a starting point for your defense. He said he is not an advocate of purse carry. Too much of what happens, happens in seconds.
He also reinforced that a round should be chambered.
Then he told me about two instances he is aware of, regarding LEO
where the first round fired, and the second round jammed. He told
me he is revising his opinion of +1. In the G26 instance if 10 isn't enough
11 isn't likely to matter. I DO NOT want to turn this thread into
a +1 thread. There is one already started a few threads down from
this one.
SG,
This makes a lot of sense! I will certainly keep this in mind if I am ever in another potentially unsafe situation!
-PDW
Quote:
Originally Posted by sawgrass
When I took my CCW class about 2 years ago, the instructor talked alot
about going to court, and keeping yourself out of jail, if you ever have
to use your firearm. As the only woman in the class, he played out different jury scenarios, between a small woman in the class, and the guys.
He kept saying what will the jury see, when they see her, and what will
the jury see if they see one of the rest of you.
I called him and asked him to read this thread and offer me his .02.
He called me back today. He didn't seem to think drpdw overreacted.
He did offer a suggestion that might be helpful to anyone in a similar
situation, male or female. He said that if you feel like someone is following or stalking you, you should engage them in a conversation.
Turn around and say "may I help you". If they persist, say "hey, leave
me alone". If they still persist, you have clearly defined a threat.
It is at least a starting point for your defense. He said he is not an advocate of purse carry. Too much of what happens, happens in seconds.
He also reinforced that a round should be chambered.
Then he told me about two instances he is aware of, regarding LEO
where the first round fired, and the second round jammed. He told
me he is revising his opinion of +1. In the G26 instance if 10 isn't enough
11 isn't likely to matter. I DO NOT want to turn this thread into
a +1 thread. There is one already started a few threads down from
this one.
First, nice to see comments taken with grace and handled with respect, in both directions. Refreshing.
Second, in real-time, SHTF situation, we are almost always reacting to things which we don't consciously remember later. In other words, our instincts notice and react to way more information than we are conscious of. Because of that, the only real judgment of how we did is what the results are when all the pieces have hit the ground. (That's why, though judicially important, "articulable suspicion" for police is artificial.)
All respect to Bob (who seems to have much to offer), since I also like to play "Monday morning quarterback": that game is important, informative, and even necessary -- but it is only an exercise. Don't let it bother you. (Not that it did, but good to say.)
You kept yourself safe, they walked away, it ended there. However you did it, you did great! And thanks for sharing with the rest of us, so we can learn!
Now, as a man, let me give you some advice ... Oops! ... sorry, impulse... never mind.
Silent_Runner,
Thanks for your affirmation of my actions on that night several weeks back. In retrospect, I can honestly say that I truly did what I could, instinctively, to self-protect. I did learn a good lesson, however, after having carefully read several excellent posts to my initial thread:
1. I should always have a round in the chamber.
2. I need to have my weapon on my person and ready to draw, if necessary.
-drpdw
drpdw, I know I've stayed mostly away from the what do you carry, how do you carry it threads because I got rid of my guns so that kind of invalidates my opinions. But I'm going to give my $.02 worth here, even if just to agree with what you have already decided. I don't like purse carry because of the risk of purse snatching or forgetting the purse even for a moment. I also thing a gun without a round in the chamber won't be much good in an emergency.
One thing I've found it's normal to do is to replay the incident and begin to 2nd guess what you did it those scary moments. Silent_Runner did that with me for a while afterwards. Sure, you can always look back and find little details you might have done differently if you could do it again. But the big picture is that you both escaped harm. That's the most important thing. It's also nice that you both avoided firing a shot.
So while picking apart the incident to learn from it is fine the most important thing is that you did an excellent job of going home safely when your day was done.
Go forth, be strong and stay safe, my friend.
__________________ +++++++++++++++++++++++NRA Endowment Member ++++++++++++++++++++++++
To those who have made the ultimate sacrifice in Operation Enduring Freedom, you will not be forgotten.
RIP my friends Greg and Florence, see you again on the other side.
I have been a firearm instructor for more than 40 years, and a Minnesota Carry Permit instructor since our law was passed (I am also Communications Director for CCRN, the group that passed the Minnesota law).
But I also was lucky enough to have spent many years as a young child in my grandfather's courtroom - he was a famous criminal court judge in Chicago. And the most important thing he taught me was this: "People always ask 'what does the law say?' Well, pay no attention to those 'experts' who tell you what is or is not self-defense. At the end of the day, 12 people who don't know you and weren't there will decide what the law means. Because out there in the courtroom is where the law actually happens."
Bottom line?
Do your best to avoid conflict situations in the first place. Most self-defense claims fail because the defendant simply shouldn't have said what they said, did what they did, or went where they went, BEFORE the actual threat occured.
Pay attention to that little "threat alarm" we all have - it can warn you before things get out of control.
Carry only an UTTERLY reliable gun - that means a revolver, or an auto-pistol with a reputation for reliability (yes, like a Glock) and even then only after YOU have put a minimum of several hundred rounds through it, including at least several dozen rounds of the EXACT ammo you carry for defense.
Carry discreetly but in a manner that allows SECURITY and ACCESSABILITY - sorry, purses (or briefcases) are not the best solution. You should also practice drawing at home while you are dressed exactly as you dress for that time of year - here in Minnesota, where the Winter temps can hit double digits below zero, it can be an especially illuminating exercise.
Carry auto-loading pistols with a round in the chamber - no exceptions. And, while "topping off" the magazine is in currently in vogue, I know of at least two situations where police officer's guns jammed after the first shot...in both cases precisely because they crammed in that last round. Note: single stack mags as in 1911's or Kahrs can be topped off without a much chance of a jam, but seriously, unless you plan on being in an extended gunfight (in which case you would be carrying a rifle or shotgun), if 10 rounds, or 15, or 17 isn't enough, one more round is not going to make the difference.
Finally, the single biggest mistake defendants make in the wake of a self-defense situation is: TALKING TO POLICE WITHOUT HAVING THEIR ATTORNEY PRESENT. Other than saying "that man tried to kill me (us)" the most important thing to do is SHUT YOUR MOUTH. Say nothing about what happened. Sign nothing. Answer ALL questions with "Officer, I'll be happy to cooperate as soon as my attorney is here." If you are read your Miranda rights, and the Officer asks, "Sir, did you understand the rights we have just read to you?" Answer, "No, I don't." If you are asked what parts did you not understand, respond "I don't understand anything - that's why I'm waiting for my attorney."
Other than that, we can only do the best we can - we will seldom have more than a few seconds to react, and all perceptions will be altered. The woman who started this thread did just that - she actually did rather well under the (very scary) circumstances. Should she have said something in the way of a warning ("leave me alone" or "stay away from me")? Perhaps. But then again, we're just Monday Morning Quarterbacking.
So, be smart, be aware and you will likely be safe...or at least safer.
Good Post. Thanks for the reminder, DON'T TALK, until your attorney
arrives. This applies to the 911 call also. Get off the phone.
Nice to see you here J. Caile.
I read over your account of the event a few times and then read through this thread.
I'm not a police officer or a lawyer, but I am a husband who wants his wife to get home unharmed every time she goes out.
My take is that you did the right thing. Maybe not the PERFECT thing, but the right thing. People trying to tell you why you weren't perfect is probably said in good intentions, and certainly one can always improve training methods. The thing is, just as no battle plan survives contact with the enemy, anyone can use hindsight and pick apart why actions were less than perfect. Don't let that detract from the victory of getting home safe.
That said, I'm infinitely more confident in getting my 5'5 120 lb wife acquitted of a brandishing* charge than I am confident in her ability to physically handle two adult males (or really, two adult females, as two to one is never good odds in a physical confrontation) who attack her. Thats not saying I think she'd make it easy for them, but numbers and size do matter in a physical confrontation. Anyone telling you otherwise is selling something.
The first qualification of justifying the use of deadly force:
1) the attacker must have the ability to kill or cripple the defender either through the use of a deadly weapon or by commanding a uneven level of force, such as a very tall man attacking an elderly woman;
While I'm not actually sure what height really has to do with it, the general idea is sound. Sure these two guys may have meant no harm whatsoever. And you did them no harm, but still readied yourself to deal with a possible threat and moved to a safer location.
I'm going to agree that purse carry is probably the worst of all available options, and hope that you find a better carrying option that suits your needs. My wife gets a lot of mileage from her thunderwear, and a clip carry for her old Kel Tec P-11, and is evaluating my MTAC for use with a G26 or similiar.
However, what I would like to say and add more emphasis than everything else in this post is as follows:
Your instincts and situational awareness combined with a cool head were your real weapon that night. The G26 was simply a force multiplier of those internal attributes. No weapon you can carry around with you will make up for allowing yourself to be surprised when one or multiple assailants tackle you to the ground and have control of your limbs and possibly greater weight and strength.
*If indeed one was even made, which I perceive to be a low probability event.
__________________
Guns aren't expensive, the ammo to get good with them is.
My carry gun is a 9mm, my backup gun is also a 9mm. I worry about being struck by lightning more than I worry about running into the bad guy who cannot be stopped by hits from 9mm weapon.
There are a lot of great suggestions and advice in the post replies. I struggle with the best way to carry my Glock 26 (especially in the spring and summer). I prefer to carry on my person and am not comfortable with carrying in my purse (too much junk in my purse). My husband bought my an Uncle Mike's pocket holster (so it covers the trigger) so I can carry in my purse but I'm not comfortable with it yet. I prefer a belly band and a lose shirt or blouse.
__________________ It is better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.
Your first impression is usually the correct one! We, in this culture, have been taught to give the "benefit of the doubt" when dealing with others. That is not a good thing in this sick and violent world.
__________________
"Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters." - Daniel Webster
Blitzer,
You are 100% on target there! Retrospectively, HAD I given these two guys the benefit of the doubt, engaged them in conversation (i.e., "What do you want?"), I may not be here right now posting this reply.
-PDW
Girly Glock,
I have a Belly Band (which I wear over my hips since I'm small around the middle and am short waisted) and an Uncle Mike's #12 ITP holster (like you). It's still a challenge for me to cover my weapon with my regular business clothes, but I need to continue working on this.
-drpdw
Quote:
Originally Posted by GirlyGlock
Glad everything turn out well in this scenario!
There are a lot of great suggestions and advice in the post replies. I struggle with the best way to carry my Glock 26 (especially in the spring and summer). I prefer to carry on my person and am not comfortable with carrying in my purse (too much junk in my purse). My husband bought my an Uncle Mike's pocket holster (so it covers the trigger) so I can carry in my purse but I'm not comfortable with it yet. I prefer a belly band and a lose shirt or blouse.
Taykaim,
Thank you for you kind words RE: how this scenario played out that night as few months ago. The bottom line IS that I walked away from those guys, and they from me. It's interesting that one person replying to my original post, accused me of "brandishing" my weapon at these two guys; another suggested that I should have engaged these guys in a conversation to access their intentions; another told me to get more defensive training; several told me that the ONLY thing I did wrong was to NOT have "one in the chamber" to begin with; but many, like you, said, in essence, "good job," and suggested that I carry on my person and not in my purse. I"m working on the latter, BTW!
Tell your wife to STAY SAFE our there! I certainly will do everything in MY power to do the very same!
-drpdw
You know, even after all of these months,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taykaim
I read over your account of the event a few times and then read through this thread.
I'm not a police officer or a lawyer, but I am a husband who wants his wife to get home unharmed every time she goes out.
My take is that you did the right thing. Maybe not the PERFECT thing, but the right thing. People trying to tell you why you weren't perfect is probably said in good intentions, and certainly one can always improve training methods. The thing is, just as no battle plan survives contact with the enemy, anyone can use hindsight and pick apart why actions were less than perfect. Don't let that detract from the victory of getting home safe.
That said, I'm infinitely more confident in getting my 5'5 120 lb wife acquitted of a brandishing* charge than I am confident in her ability to physically handle two adult males (or really, two adult females, as two to one is never good odds in a physical confrontation) who attack her. Thats not saying I think she'd make it easy for them, but numbers and size do matter in a physical confrontation. Anyone telling you otherwise is selling something.
The first qualification of justifying the use of deadly force:
1) the attacker must have the ability to kill or cripple the defender either through the use of a deadly weapon or by commanding a uneven level of force, such as a very tall man attacking an elderly woman;
While I'm not actually sure what height really has to do with it, the general idea is sound. Sure these two guys may have meant no harm whatsoever. And you did them no harm, but still readied yourself to deal with a possible threat and moved to a safer location.
I'm going to agree that purse carry is probably the worst of all available options, and hope that you find a better carrying option that suits your needs. My wife gets a lot of mileage from her thunderwear, and a clip carry for her old Kel Tec P-11, and is evaluating my MTAC for use with a G26 or similiar.
However, what I would like to say and add more emphasis than everything else in this post is as follows:
Your instincts and situational awareness combined with a cool head were your real weapon that night. The G26 was simply a force multiplier of those internal attributes. No weapon you can carry around with you will make up for allowing yourself to be surprised when one or multiple assailants tackle you to the ground and have control of your limbs and possibly greater weight and strength.
*If indeed one was even made, which I perceive to be a low probability event.
Glad I had my Glock 26 with me the other night. When I was exiting a retail establishment, into a dark parking lot, I noticed that there were two sets of very distinct footsteps behind me. I glanced back to see two men separate from each other and continue, at a slow pace, in my direction. I looked up to see that there was a truck parked next to my little black car; it was not there when I parked it a few minutes prior to this time. What to do? Draw out my weapon? Scream? Run? I remembered what I had learned from some tactical DVDs I had viewed some time back, and calmly turned around, with my hand on my Glock, in plain view of one of the men with whom I established eye contact. I continued walking back to the store, from where I had exited and waited while the workers were closing up the store.
Long story short, I felt that my Glock (with Crimson Trace laser grips) was there to protect me had I needed it...good feeling. The two men who I felt had been following me quickly met at the truck and drove off into the darkness. Were these two men a threat? I don't know. Was I over-reacting? I don't think so. I will never hesitate to carry, where it is allowed.
about 85 % of all encounters are in no light or low light conditions be sure to get a flashlight.
What a good reminder, Eleventyonegadgets!
I always carry a small white light with me at night...good idea to have one with one's weapon. I agree 100% with you!
-PDW
Quote:
Originally Posted by eleventyonegadgets.c
about 85 % of all encounters are in no light or low light conditions be sure to get a flashlight.
especially if you wear it across your chest, I am not saying don't wear a purse, but for myself, a woman carrying a purse looks more vulnerable, no purse.. no purse snatchers..... reduce the risk, keep your hands free, reduce the steps you have to take to get to your firearm.
. 
). My husband bought my an Uncle Mike's pocket holster (so it covers the trigger) so I can carry in my purse but I'm not comfortable with it yet. I prefer a belly band and a lose shirt or blouse.
It's interesting that one person replying to my original post, accused me of "brandishing" my weapon at these two guys; another suggested that I should have engaged these guys in a conversation to access their intentions; another told me to get more defensive training; several told me that the ONLY thing I did wrong was to NOT have "one in the chamber" to begin with; but many, like you, said, in essence, "good job," and suggested that I carry on my person and not in my purse. I"m working on the latter, BTW!
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