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Old 12-28-2009, 12:28   #21
David Armstrong
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Yes. The problem, IMO, is that some folks look at these various situations with the goal of trying to support their preconceived biases and/or personal agendas rather than looking at them with open minds and from multiple perspectives.
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Old 12-28-2009, 13:38   #22
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... But in this case it just doesn't matter, the guy could have had a revolver, a loaded shotgun, or whatever with him, without changing the outcome.

How did you come to that conclusion????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 12-28-2009, 16:19   #23
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Originally Posted by Magnum 357 View Post
Watch this video:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=086_1260862712

and then ask me why I carry a REVOLVER S&W for self defense!!!!!
Ok, why do you carry a REVOLVER for s/d.
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Old 12-28-2009, 16:32   #24
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How did you come to that conclusion????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
By watching the video and discussing it in the other thread on this event.
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Old 12-28-2009, 19:32   #25
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David:

I hope you are never in a jury or a judge!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 12-28-2009, 21:09   #26
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David:

I hope you are never in a jury or a judge!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yea Magnum, after seeing him in the video racking the slide like crazy, aiming, gun don't fire, then racking again, then aiming, gun don't fire, then racking again.... hmm would a Glock or Smith M10 have done better if they were fully loaded and like one in the chamber to begin with?

I'd say yep, he would have fired immediately and, as in the video, at the range he would have been firing, the outcome would have been alot different.

A whole lot different!

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Old 12-29-2009, 14:19   #27
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David:

I hope you are never in a jury or a judge!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Don't have to worry too much about that. I do the expert witness stuff. Not sure what that has to do with the fact that the guy was miles behind the curve and already shot before he even got his hands on a weapon, however.
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Old 12-29-2009, 14:21   #28
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I'd say yep, he would have fired immediately and, as in the video, at the range he would have been firing, the outcome would have been alot different.

A whole lot different!
Ummm, do you even know what the outcome was? Did the guy live or die? How many times was he shot? How many times was he hit before he got the gun out? How many attackers were there? Or is this just some of that making up facts to fit a preconceived conclusion stuff?

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Old 12-29-2009, 18:33   #29
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Ummm, do you even know what the outcome was? Did the guy live or die? How many times was he shot? How many times was he hit before he got the gun out? How many attackers were there? Or is this just some of that making up facts to fit a preconceived conclusion stuff?

Well david if you had watched the video and read at the top of the screen you would have noticed....

Quote:
"The Agra police have released the CCTV footage of a murder inside a jewelery store. The images are of two gunmen barging into the jewelery shop on Sunday and opening fire."
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Old 12-29-2009, 22:37   #30
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Well david if you had watched the video and read at the top of the screen you would have noticed....
Deaf
I've noticed that, which is my point. This guy was shot BEFORE he got his hand on a gun. Having a round in the chamber would not have changed that at all. The only way one can use this as a "C3 is bad" argument is if they are working off of an established agenda rather than taking an honest look at the facts. Again, folks might want to try the other thread for a less biased view about the incident.
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Old 12-30-2009, 17:13   #31
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I've noticed that, which is my point. This guy was shot BEFORE he got his hand on a gun. Having a round in the chamber would not have changed that at all. The only way one can use this as a "C3 is bad" argument is if they are working off of an established agenda rather than taking an honest look at the facts. Again, folks might want to try the other thread for a less biased view about the incident.
So, because you say he was shot before his hand was on his gun he should have done what?

Just die?

Quit?

Surrender?

Or keep fighting?

And to keep fighting he needed to do what?

Load the gun, right? He tried to do but failed cause it was chamber empty.

See david, there were other people there to protect, and I doubt he KNEW he was dead, or going to die.

I think the other readers here know the answer.

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Old 12-30-2009, 22:55   #32
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So, because you say he was shot before his hand was on his gun he should have done what?
I'm not saying he should have done anything. I'm pointing out that it is quite a stretch to try to turn this video into a "gee, look how bad C3 is" discussion. That is why I keep referring folks back to the other thread. There was an excellent discussion over there based on the video, while here the discussion has been driven by a few folks who want to use the video to support a preconceived position. Thus the point that it is interesting how someone who comes to the discussion with a closed mind and preconceived conclusion develops a very different take on an event when compared to those who have looked at the same event with an open mind.
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Old 12-31-2009, 15:42   #33
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I'm not saying he should have done anything.

Should have done anything? David he was getting robbed and shot. Done anything?

So basically you are giving up and trying to pass the argument to others, right? Because, what, you cannot articulate well? Don't have a idea?

Well to the rest of the guys here, you will note if you are getting robbed and shot, giving up is not much of an option, and having to chamber load a pistol while having that done to you isn't a good idea either.

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Old 12-31-2009, 16:52   #34
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This is India is it not?

Civilian carry of handguns (Jewelry and stuff) in India is .32 calibre only.

Semi Auto or Revolver.

I know that because I used to help out a Gunsmith, in Toronto, in his shop now and again. Harry picked up some S&W .32 S&W 6 shot Revolvers (very good condition, ex of Toronto Police) like Mod 10s, all the same size parts, frame, and butt, except a skinny .32 barrel, and .32 cylinder. No real recoil, and very accurate, we were getting a good $ for them, shipping them to India.

Their access to training, none existent, extra rounds, I think it was 50 rounds of round nose lead bullets (Cartridges) when you bought it.

My cousin was a Sgt. in Metro Police, and carried a .32 when he joined the force from the Fleet Air Arm Brit Navy, in 1946 when he demobbed in Canada.

Some kid in a convenience store shot at him, he shot back, from 6 feet, but there was a box of empty coke bottles in the way, the round nosed bullet made it through one bottle, ended up in the next!

The problem? No training, just carried the gun, never shot it, and not a very aggressive people. Looked like if he had got a shot or shots off, he was a dead duck anyhow, carrying a .32 pocket pistol breach empty, dumb.

I carry a Glock 19 sixteen rounds ready to go, full magazine, +1!!! That's the way to go, "More is better, always!" I said that.
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Old 12-31-2009, 18:36   #35
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The way I look at it Scouse, is that while it is a 'personal decision' (heck, everything you do is a 'personal decision'), there is no reason to complicate matters.

Now we have explored several reasons one might complicate it and carry chamber empty.

1. Non-drop safe weapon.
2. Non safe carry method (say pocket carry without any kind of holster.)
3. Abject unfamiliarly with ones weapon.

We have also explored disadvantages with chamber empty carry.

1. Takes two hands to handle my whopp...
2. Very difficult to chamber load, one handed or two, if grappling with ones attacker.
3. Short stroking under pressure a real possibility.
4. Taking extra time when time is short.
5. Very difficult if the attacker is with reach to chamber and not be open to a grab.

I'm sure there are more reasons, but those above will do.

And the advantages of having it fully loaded.

1. Immediate use without any wasted time.
2. Use by one hand (hopefully either hand.)
3. Use in a CQB situation.
4. One extra round (the one already chambered.)

So while it's a 'personal decision', it's a wise decision to carry the weapon fully loaded (and in a secure holster!) Not to mention be skilled with ones chosen weapon!

Deaf
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Last edited by Deaf Smith; 12-31-2009 at 18:38..
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Old 12-31-2009, 21:15   #36
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everything you do is a 'personal decision'

everything you do is a 'personal decision'

Deaf, you might not realize how brilliant your statement above is, till you dissect it.

For instance, it is not only a 'personal decision to have a round chambered, it is also a 'personal decision as to what it is chambered in? Mine a Glock 19, 16 rounds of 9mm, drop proof, no safety catches, or switches at all to make it go bang, just a single finger.

Next, it is a 'personal decision as to how you are going to carry it, what holster, what mode of concealment.

And last but not least, 'personal decision, what trigger weight, and fiber optic sights.

So you have picked up from a single 'personal decision, the chambered/or not.

To the full Monty! Armed for most situations, head shots at 10 yds, body hits somewhere up to 150yds, for moderately good shots. Three double taps at three assailants, 3-5-7 yards from a concealed draw in about 3 seconds.

Add a spare Glock 17 magazine, small bright flashlight, and a good folding knife... What else do you need? Oh Yes! Live in Florida!!!


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Originally Posted by Deaf Smith View Post
The way I look at it Scouse, is that while it is a 'personal decision' (heck, everything you do is a 'personal decision'), there is no reason to complicate matters.

Now we have explored several reasons one might complicate it and carry chamber empty.

1. Non-drop safe weapon.
2. Non safe carry method (say pocket carry without any kind of holster.)
3. Abject unfamiliarly with ones weapon.

We have also explored disadvantages with chamber empty carry.

1. Takes two hands to handle my whopp...
2. Very difficult to chamber load, one handed or two, if grappling with ones attacker.
3. Short stroking under pressure a real possibility.
4. Taking extra time when time is short.
5. Very difficult if the attacker is with reach to chamber and not be open to a grab.

I'm sure there are more reasons, but those above will do.

And the advantages of having it fully loaded.

1. Immediate use without any wasted time.
2. Use by one hand (hopefully either hand.)
3. Use in a CQB situation.
4. One extra round (the one already chambered.)

So while it's a 'personal decision', it's a wise decision to carry the weapon fully loaded (and in a secure holster!) Not to mention be skilled with ones chosen weapon!

Deaf
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Last edited by Scouse; 12-31-2009 at 21:17..
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Old 12-31-2009, 22:34   #37
Deaf Smith
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everything you do is a 'personal decision'

Deaf, you might not realize how brilliant your statement above is, till you dissect it.

For instance, it is not only a 'personal decision to have a round chambered, it is also a 'personal decision as to what it is chambered in? Mine a Glock 19, 16 rounds of 9mm, drop proof, no safety catches, or switches at all to make it go bang, just a single finger.

Next, it is a 'personal decision as to how you are going to carry it, what holster, what mode of concealment.

And last but not least, 'personal decision, what trigger weight, and fiber optic sights.

So you have picked up from a single 'personal decision, the chambered/or not.

To the full Monty! Armed for most situations, head shots at 10 yds, body hits somewhere up to 150yds, for moderately good shots. Three double taps at three assailants, 3-5-7 yards from a concealed draw in about 3 seconds.

Add a spare Glock 17 magazine, small bright flashlight, and a good folding knife... What else do you need? Oh Yes! Live in Florida!!!
No no no Scouse. Live in Texas (but for me that's by birth.) But I've got to admit, Florida is a nice one.

But while we have the right to make our decisions, we have a responsibility to make good ones.

And that is alot of what I'm trying to tell david.

Deaf
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Old 01-01-2010, 11:08   #38
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So basically you are giving up and trying to pass the argument to others, right? Because, what, you cannot articulate well? Don't have a idea?
No, deaf. The point, which seems to pass by you every time, is that YOU keep trying to line out positions that others have not taken. YOU are making claims about what they are saying instead of dealing with what they have actually said. YOU are the one who is giving up, not on the argument, but on dealing with what is really said, and instead going back to your old tactic of "Man, I'm getting beat up on the actual facts and issues, so let's make something up, claim the other guy said it or has taken that position, then try to get the argument to focus on that, rather than the issues."

Here is the issue again, deaf, as you seem to have forgotten it: Would carrrying chamber loaded have changed the outcome of this shooting? The answwer, of course, is "no", as Scouse has also pointed (unless I misunderstood him) when he said. "The problem? No training, just carried the gun, never shot it, and not a very aggressive people. Looked like if he had got a shot or shots off, he was a dead duck anyhow,...."
Using your reasoning, deaf, anytime somebody screws up with a chamber loaded gun and gets shot it is evidence that chamber loaded is a bad way to carry!

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And that is alot of what I'm trying to tell david.
No, deaf, what you are trying to tell David and others is "there is only one right way to carry a gun, no matter what the individual situation, and it is the way that I think it should be carried." It is pretty obvious, even in your "lists" where you neglect to mention any of the advantages of chamber empty carry and neglect to mention any of the disadvantages of chamber loaded carry. You have an established agenda, and it prevents you from looking at these situations with an open mind.

Last edited by David Armstrong; 01-01-2010 at 11:18..
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Old 01-01-2010, 12:14   #39
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Here is the issue again, deaf, as you seem to have forgotten it: Would carrrying chamber loaded have changed the outcome of this shooting?
Yea the outcome would have been differnt david. Some dead bad guys? And when faced with the same situation we all know you might survive the wounds and don't roll over and play dead.


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No, deaf, what you are trying to tell David and others is "there is only one right way to carry a gun, no matter what the individual situation, and it is the way that I think it should be carried." It is pretty obvious, even in your "lists" where you neglect to mention any of the advantages of chamber empty carry and neglect to mention any of the disadvantages of chamber loaded carry. You have an established agenda, and it prevents you from looking at these situations with an open mind.
Advantages of chamber empty carry?

Short of being fumble fingered there ain't any. I metioned some reasons why one would carry chamber empty (as you seem to have failed to read.) And the disadvantages of carrying a loaded gun? Oh, yea, you might violate the four basic rules of safety and shoot yourself, right?

Really, if you don't have time to learn how to safely handle ones weapon, then you really don't need it.

Deaf
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Old 01-01-2010, 15:10   #40
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Watch this video:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=086_1260862712

and then ask me why I carry a REVOLVER S&W for self defense!!!!!
Why do you carry a "Revolver S&W" (never heard it called that before) for self defense, all knowing one?
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