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Old 01-22-2010, 20:49   #1
PghJim
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HST and PDX1 Test

I was bored tonight and had nine gallon jugs of water to kill so I thought I would see how 357 Sig HST, 45 ACP HST and 45 Winchester PDX1 performed through 4 layers of denim. Both 45's were 230 grains and the shots were made from fifteen feet away. I know that this is not a standard test, but it is my standard test and allows me to compare bullets in the same medium. The 357 sig HST performed really well, completely exploding the first two jugs and the final expansion was 0.61". It is the one on the left. It did not have the devestating power of the 125 gr. JHP CorBon, but since I cannot get any, the HST's will have to do. It did perform better than the 125 GD's. This was shot out of a G32. The one in the middle is the PDX1 and it expanded to 0.70" and penetrated just as far as the 357 sig, which would be through all three jugs and caught in the first four layers of a towel behind the last jug. There was not much explosive power in that the second jug just sat there and drained through the holes. Another thing about the PDX1 is that the talons are bonded and do not peel off, well one out of six peeled off. This was shot out of a 4" XD45 as was the HST bullet on the right.

The 45 ACP HST bullet is a real gem, showing good energy through the first two jugs and penetrating the same as the other two. However, it expanded to 0.87". I think this will be my carry round in a 45.

Caliber Corner
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Old 01-22-2010, 20:54   #2
mattellis2
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nice. i have been equally impressed, and carry HST in both 9mm or 45 acp, depending on what pistol i feel like carrying.
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Old 01-22-2010, 21:00   #3
82ndVet
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Thanks for sharing. That .45 HST looks wicked.

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Old 01-22-2010, 22:00   #4
glocksterr
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thats good expansion for a 4" pipe.
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Old 01-22-2010, 22:23   #5
PghJim
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One of the interesting things about the 357 sig HST is that the exit hole on the first jug and the entrance hole on the second jug indicated a bullet diameter significantly bigger than the final expansion size. If you bend up the pedals the bullet would be over an inch in diameter. Evidently it completed its expansion in the second jug because the exit hole on the second jug was smaller and the same size as the entrance and exit holes on the third jug. One thing we do not always think about when we look at final expansion is that for a part of the bullets trip it expanded up to, and maybe over, an inch and then bent back to 0.61"
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Old 01-22-2010, 23:15   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PghJim View Post
One of the interesting things about the 357 sig HST is that the exit hole on the first jug and the entrance hole on the second jug indicated a bullet diameter significantly bigger than the final expansion size. If you bend up the pedals the bullet would be over an inch in diameter. Evidently it completed its expansion in the second jug because the exit hole on the second jug was smaller and the same size as the entrance and exit holes on the third jug. One thing we do not always think about when we look at final expansion is that for a part of the bullets trip it expanded up to, and maybe over, an inch and then bent back to 0.61"
That is an interesting observation. I think you make a good point that the final expansion can be misleading in some cases.

BTW, you mentioned the CorBon 125 gr JHP in your first post. Have you done a similar test with it previously? If so, how did it compare to the results you saw from the .357 SIG HST?
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Old 01-23-2010, 16:15   #7
PghJim
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BTW, you mentioned the CorBon 125 gr JHP in your first post. Have you done a similar test with it previously? If so, how did it compare to the results you saw from the .357 SIG HST?
The Corbon 125 JHP is truly the only 357 Sig round that acts like a 125gr Rem. 357 magnum round. It expands to about .80" and the pentration is not that great, in that it generally does not make it through the third jug but dimples the exit side. I have shot animals include a very dangerous wild dog and the effect is dramatic with a two feet stream of blood and lung blasting out the exit hole. However, it it would not pass the FBI tests very well as far as shooting through glass and such. However, I do not think I will be in a situation where I have to worry about that. Corbon uses a Seirra 125gr JHP, but have not been able to get any because Seirra has been filling a big govenment contract, which I understand is now complete. The production manager at CorBon told me he has over 500,000 bullets on back order. He said I probably will not be able to get it until March. Foulish me, in that I shot up all of mine not knowing I would not be able to get more. It never happened before. I have shot every 357 sig round made in the past 12 years and I would rank CorBon number 1 for citizen PD, This HST looks promising but I have not shot anything alive with it. The CorBon leaves my Glock 32 at 1,430fps, I think the HST is only 1,360fps. When you examine the fired HST you can see that it really was designed for that velocity. Forgive me for rambling on, but I really like the 357 sig. I would feel ok with a 40S&W and I have carried it. With the performance of the 45 HST, I may carry my 4" XD45 Compact more now.

Last edited by PghJim; 01-23-2010 at 16:26..
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Old 01-23-2010, 19:43   #8
mattellis2
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The Corbon 125 JHP is truly the only 357 Sig round that acts like a 125gr Rem. 357 magnum round. It expands to about .80" and the pentration is not that great, in that it generally does not make it through the third jug but dimples the exit side. I have shot animals include a very dangerous wild dog and the effect is dramatic with a two feet stream of blood and lung blasting out the exit hole. However, it it would not pass the FBI tests very well as far as shooting through glass and such. However, I do not think I will be in a situation where I have to worry about that. Corbon uses a Seirra 125gr JHP, but have not been able to get any because Seirra has been filling a big govenment contract, which I understand is now complete. The production manager at CorBon told me he has over 500,000 bullets on back order. He said I probably will not be able to get it until March. Foulish me, in that I shot up all of mine not knowing I would not be able to get more. It never happened before. I have shot every 357 sig round made in the past 12 years and I would rank CorBon number 1 for citizen PD, This HST looks promising but I have not shot anything alive with it. The CorBon leaves my Glock 32 at 1,430fps, I think the HST is only 1,360fps. When you examine the fired HST you can see that it really was designed for that velocity. Forgive me for rambling on, but I really like the 357 sig. I would feel ok with a 40S&W and I have carried it. With the performance of the 45 HST, I may carry my 4" XD45 Compact more now.
i need to hear this story, if you don't mind.

Last edited by mattellis2; 01-23-2010 at 21:31..
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Old 01-23-2010, 20:32   #9
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My eight year old son and I were walking a path in the deep woods and this dog, of no particular breed was in the path about 30 yards away as we rounded the bend. It was not a very wide path and other than deer tracks it did not look as if it was used much. The dog did not look right and was growing, not barking and he ran toward us and I did not know what to do, get out my gun or run with my son but the dog stopped about twenty feet away still growing and his head was turned a strange way. We slowly started to walk backwards and as soon as we got a little over five feet further away the dog would close the distance but still stay 15 -20 feet away growing all of the time. I would guess the dog weighed over 60 pounds. Of couse at this time I had my G32 out and pointed at the dog. We tried to back away a couple of times and the dog closed the distance. He also seemed more agitated and kept going from one side of the path to the other. I have owned dogs all of my life and it was hard for me to shoot one. I was very concered he had rabies and worried if we started to run, he may start to run and possible bite my son, or me. I decided I had to shoot, and at that point I was glad that I always carried a gun. Although the dog was going back and forth, I never had a real good broadside shot, and I was worried about shooting for the head and missing. You would be surprised how those stready nerves at the range are no longer there when you feel you have to shoot. I took the best shot I could right behind the left shoulder. It seemed to happen in slow motion, but I could vivedly see a spray of blood and tissue stream out the other side. The dog took two or three steps and dropped over. Now this seems like a long story, but it all happened in less than 2 or 3 minutes. I remember standing there with the gun on the fallen dog for over a minute, but he did not move at all and I could not detect any breathing. Maybe if I was by myself or with another adult I would have gone over, but my son was pretty upset by it all and I thought the best thing would be to just get him away from it all so we walked back. I remember walking backwards for quite a while with my G32 pointed down the path. Now we were not in an area of any houses and pretty much up in the woods in that I was scouting out possible place to deer hunt that fall. I never went back there.

Last edited by PghJim; 01-23-2010 at 20:35..
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Old 01-23-2010, 21:33   #10
mattellis2
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and my wife always wonders why i carry when we take our kid for a walk.

glad you were prepared, and hope your little boy wasn't too worked up over it. glad the ammo worked as advertised, too.
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Old 02-12-2010, 22:24   #11
N/Apower
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Originally Posted by PghJim View Post
One of the interesting things about the 357 sig HST is that the exit hole on the first jug and the entrance hole on the second jug indicated a bullet diameter significantly bigger than the final expansion size. If you bend up the pedals the bullet would be over an inch in diameter. Evidently it completed its expansion in the second jug because the exit hole on the second jug was smaller and the same size as the entrance and exit holes on the third jug. One thing we do not always think about when we look at final expansion is that for a part of the bullets trip it expanded up to, and maybe over, an inch and then bent back to 0.61"
JHP's fully expand within 2" or less of penetration normally, at handgun velocities.

What occurs is that the exit on the milk-jugs in the front of the stack is larger because there is more velocity at impact, thus there is less stretching and more tearing. Think about a piece of paper shot with a .45 vs one shot with a .223. The .223 holes are cleaner, and larger in diameter compared with the projectile that made them.
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Old 02-13-2010, 06:46   #12
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You mentioned that the 125gr HST performed better than the 125gr GD. I'm not surprised. Can you provide additional details and/or pictures?
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Old 02-13-2010, 08:06   #13
PghJim
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You mentioned that the 125gr HST performed better than the 125gr GD. I'm not surprised. Can you provide additional details and/or pictures?
I no longer have the slugs for pictures. The HST exhibited more energy throught the first two jugs. The GD folded in on itself to a smaller, rounder mushroom than the HST. Besides expanding more, the HST had a jagged edged around the circumference of the mushroom. I do not know if this sounds right, but the HST seemed to be designed for its velocity, or to perform exactly the same at a veloctiy range. I have found GD performance in the 357 sig bullet to be velocity dependent. Also as mentioned in my post below, the HST actually tore a large hole (read plastic missing) on the exit of the first jug and not the stretch tear I have seen with GD's

Last edited by PghJim; 02-13-2010 at 08:22..
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Old 02-13-2010, 08:19   #14
PghJim
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JHP's fully expand within 2" or less of penetration normally, at handgun velocities.

What occurs is that the exit on the milk-jugs in the front of the stack is larger because there is more velocity at impact, thus there is less stretching and more tearing. Think about a piece of paper shot with a .45 vs one shot with a .223. The .223 holes are cleaner, and larger in diameter compared with the projectile that made them.
First, I am not doubting you. What made this different is that the exit hole and entrance hole into the second jug were just that, holes. Not the stretch tear that I have seen with GD's. I understand that most JHP expand in the first 3". However, I do not follow your analogy. When I shoot a 45 through paper I get at 45 hole and when I shoot a .223 I get a .224 hole. Even went back to saved targets of both calibers and measured. Also, following your thinking why would the entrance hole on the first jug be a perfect round hole and not a stretch tear. The reason I brought it up is because it was different than other bullets. Whether it was a velocity induced stretch tear I do not know, but it was the only bullet that tore a chunk out of the jugs that was larger than the exit hole on the second jug and the entrance and exit on the third.
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Old 02-13-2010, 13:55   #15
N/Apower
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First, I am not doubting you. What made this different is that the exit hole and entrance hole into the second jug were just that, holes. Not the stretch tear that I have seen with GD's. I understand that most JHP expand in the first 3". However, I do not follow your analogy. When I shoot a 45 through paper I get at 45 hole and when I shoot a .223 I get a .224 hole. Even went back to saved targets of both calibers and measured. Also, following your thinking why would the entrance hole on the first jug be a perfect round hole and not a stretch tear. The reason I brought it up is because it was different than other bullets. Whether it was a velocity induced stretch tear I do not know, but it was the only bullet that tore a chunk out of the jugs that was larger than the exit hole on the second jug and the entrance and exit on the third.
When I shoot paper with a .45 FMJ, I get a hole roughly .25" across. By hole, I mean area with no paper. Not counting "tears". The FMJ .223 is much closer to .224.

The higher the velocity, the more area is going to be removed from the target with regards to paper/milk-jugs.

Lets try this. Take a pen and shove it through a piece of paper. Pull it back out. Lay the paper flat on something and approximate the edges of the hole. How much table-top do you see through where the pen passed?

Now take a .45ACP and shoot a piece of paper. Repeat the experiment.

I wager there is much more table showing through the .45ACP hole than the pen hole.

I would really like to see some gel testing of 357SIG HST's. I looked for it after reading this post, but couldn't find any.

I am basing the information I have off of high-speed video of stuff like XTP's etc. hitting gel and expanding fully within an inch or less.

Construction also plays a role (compare the hole in a piece of paper from a wad-cutter vs. round-nose). Gold-Dots usually have a much "smoother" frontal area (especially around the edges) than does the HST round. On something like a milk-jug, that matters immensely. I could count talon-cuts on RA45T that I should through milk-jugs. Now THOSE! were nasty. 1" across.

ETA: Just now read this. See above, lol:
Quote:
Originally Posted by PghJim View Post
I no longer have the slugs for pictures. The HST exhibited more energy throught the first two jugs. The GD folded in on itself to a smaller, rounder mushroom than the HST. Besides expanding more, the HST had a jagged edged around the circumference of the mushroom. I do not know if this sounds right, but the HST seemed to be designed for its velocity, or to perform exactly the same at a veloctiy range. I have found GD performance in the 357 sig bullet to be velocity dependent. Also as mentioned in my post below, the HST actually tore a large hole (read plastic missing) on the exit of the first jug and not the stretch tear I have seen with GD's
The Gold Dot and HST are two completely different designs. The HST was designed for maximum expansion. The Gold Dot was designed to penetrate more. The HST will obviously do more damage to watermellons/milk-jugs/rabbits as it is (roughly) going the same speed, yet has a larger diameter (shortly after hitting the target). It will be more "explosive", as you have noted.

Last edited by N/Apower; 02-13-2010 at 14:00..
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Old 02-13-2010, 14:42   #16
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......The HST will obviously do more damage to watermellons/milk-jugs/rabbits......
....and 2 legged adversaries.
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Old 02-13-2010, 16:13   #17
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Ammo to Go has HST's at least they did the other day. I understand what you mean by tearing paper. However, it depends on the paper and whether there is a solid target board behind it. When I shoot 45 ACP SWC's they cut a perfect hole. I have shot paper without a back board and have observed some of what you are saying. And of couse if you shoot a round nose bullet or pointed the missing paper will not be the size of the bullet.

I just checked and Ammo to Go still has them.
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Old 02-13-2010, 16:27   #18
N/Apower
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Ammo to Go has HST's at least they did the other day. I understand what you mean by tearing paper. However, it depends on the paper and whether there is a solid target board behind it. When I shoot 45 ACP SWC's they cut a perfect hole. I have shot paper without a back board and have observed some of what you are saying. And of couse if you shoot a round nose bullet or pointed the missing paper will not be the size of the bullet.

I just checked and Ammo to Go still has them.


http://le.atk.com/pdf/HSTInsertPoster.pdf

This compared to the Gold-Dot:

http://le.atk.com/pdf/GoldDotPoster.pdf


I opted for superior penetration sacrificing a small amount of expansion, and went with Gold Dot.

Both rounds did much better than the Ranger-T loading.

http://www.winchester.com/SiteCollec...law_bullit.swf

Last edited by N/Apower; 02-13-2010 at 16:36..
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Old 02-13-2010, 17:25   #19
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I think HST, Gold Dot, and Ranger-T are all excellent rounds that will get the job done. However I do think HST is the best overall performer. It gets good penetration 12+ inches, usually expands the most with jagged sharp cutting edges, and holds on to its core very well for being a non-bonded bullet. The Gold Dot tends to get a little more penetration, however its cavity seems to have a greater chance of clogging on heavy clothing and under expanding compared to the larger HST hollow-point. The Ranger-T expands similar to the HST and penetrates similar to the Gold Dot, however it has a harder time of holding on to its jacket from the tests I've seen. Either way all 3 are great loads and it comes down to what your gun likes the best. Just so happens my HK P30 loves 147gr HST and my HK 45c loves 230gr HST.
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Old 02-13-2010, 18:26   #20
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I think HST, Gold Dot, and Ranger-T are all excellent rounds that will get the job done. However I do think HST is the best overall performer. It gets good penetration 12+ inches, usually expands the most with jagged sharp cutting edges, and holds on to its core very well for being a non-bonded bullet. The Gold Dot tends to get a little more penetration, however its cavity seems to have a greater chance of clogging on heavy clothing and under expanding compared to the larger HST hollow-point. The Ranger-T expands similar to the HST and penetrates similar to the Gold Dot, however it has a harder time of holding on to its jacket from the tests I've seen. Either way all 3 are great loads and it comes down to what your gun likes the best. Just so happens my HK P30 loves 147gr HST and my HK 45c loves 230gr HST.
The Gold dot is the only one that penetrates 12'' or more in all 8 tests. That is why I like it.
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