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Old 02-01-2010, 12:54   #101
uz2bUSMC
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As can be seen above, basically all the standard service calibers work when using good quality ammunition. The platform picked tends to dictate the caliber.
Policemarksman,

You're still lost. Yes the above all worked in inanimate objects. You need to learn that your jello murderin' friends are in it for money overall. They can't afford to be wrong. Or rather, exposed to be...
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Old 02-01-2010, 13:12   #102
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Originally Posted by Police Marksman View Post
While .357 Sig is a very reliably performing 9mm bullet, it is does not offer significantly better terminal performance compared with the best current 9mm ammunition.
Quite a few people have posted clearly noticable greater wounding effects with the 357SIG over the best current 9mm ammo right here in caliber corner on various animals. It was also brought up by Dr. Courtney in the link dahahn provided: http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0702/0702107.pdf I'm talking wounds with a wider wound track and quicker incapacitation on average. Some LE claim the same according to some on GT. At least one Montana highway patrol officer has said the same to fredj338 when it comes to cleanly dispatching deer hit by cars as opposed to the other cartridges they used to use.
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When firing through heavy clothing, automotive steel panels, automobile windshield glass, interior wall segments, exterior wall segments, and plywood, both the 357 Sig Speer 125 gr JHP Gold Dot and 9mm Speer 124 gr +P JHP Gold Dot exhibited nearly identical penetration and expansion results THROUGH ALL THE DIFFERENT BARRIERS, as demonstrated by both our testing and that of the FBI BRF. Most 357 Sig loadings, unless they fail to expand, do not offer excessive penetration; in fact, the exact opposite, under-penetration, can be a problem. Several .40 S&W and .45 ACP loads offered superior terminal performance through barriers compared to the 9mm and 357 Sig loads. In addition to having tested virtually all the handgun ammo available in lab settings, we have also had the opportunity to analyze numerous OIS incident forensic results and have not observed any greater incapacitation in actual shootings with users of 357 Sig loads compared to those users of 9 mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP who are using equivalent modern, well engineered ammunition.
All the barriers you speak of are the direct result of FBI protocol. Aside from those, 357SIG has been shown clearly to outpenetrate even thicker hard barriers betters.

As for the "numerous OIS incident forensic results", I'm not buying it. Not without seeing the data they actually compared. We've seen to much other evidence that contradicts it. How many incidents with each cartridge were looked at? Of the data, what specific data did they base their decision on? It may seem I'm being picky here, but I've seen BS stuff DocGKR has posted in the past with zero supporting evidence, not to mention that even without proof he preaches dead set against Dr. Courtney's work.
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The 357 Sig is not a bad cartridge, it just does not seem to offer anything that is not already available, at the price of less ammunition capacity than the similarly performing 9mm, as well as having greater recoil, muzzle flash, and wear on the weapon compared to other service pistol cartridges. On the other hand, since the 357 Sig is a modern cartridge benefiting from the latest engineering concepts, the bullets loaded with it have generally all been designed and tested using the latest FBI, IWBA, etc... testing protocols. This results in more robust terminal performance, less failures to expand, and thus greater tissue damage than will be found with older projectile designs. In addition, since according to data from Fackler and others, approximately 50% of shooting victims are incapacitated by psychological mechanisms, it is possible that the increased blast, flash, and noise of the 357 Sig enhances psychological perceptions of being shot.
50% of shooting victims are incapacitated by psychological mechanisms? Ok, maybe loosely, since it can't actually accurately be measured. But that doesn't mean the 357SIG doesn't produce wounding effects over and above the 9mm, 40S&W, or 45, leading to quicker incapacitation some percentage of the time.

Blast, flash, and noise? Jeez, it's not rifle round. Isn't that what we're always told? Just what percent more blast, flash, and noise would you say the 357SIG creates over 9mm, and what specific loads in each are you comparing? It would unquestionably be a stretch to say that's going to happen between the average 357SIG load and 9mm Win 127gr +P+! Heck, if that's the case, my 10mm loads oughta be dropping BGs without even hitting them with the bullet! Yeah, I'ld say the "blast, flash, and noise" is over reaching at best! If that would be the case, I'ld be switching to 44 Mag from a 4" to say the least!
Quote:
In discussing this issue with an experienced ammunition engineer at one of the major ammo companies, he stated that he didn't particularly like the 357 Sig from an engineering perspective and described their difficulties in designing and producing 357 Sig ammunition which consistently performs as well as their ammunition in other service calibers. In particular, he felt his company's 357 Sig loads offered no better performance than their top 9 mm loads and stated their .40 S&W loads were superior in every respect to their 357 Sig ammunition. He firmly believes their .40 S&W offerings are the best performing duty ammunition his company produces.
Yeah, it didn't offered any better performance than their top 9 mm loads and .40 S&W loads because they design all loads to work equally according to FBI protocol. And ballistic gel isn't going to tell them how the bullet actually performs in a human, only relative penetration depth compared to the other bullets/loads they manufacture. No big surpise there.
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Contemplate this--Prior to transitioning to .40 S&W, the CHP used a variety of .357 Mag loads, depending upon what was available via the state contract. According to the published CHP test data, the .357 Magnum load used immediately prior to the CHP transition to .40 S&W was the Remington 125 gr JHP with an ave. MV of 1450 f/s from their duty revolvers. Yet despite the decrease in velocity, the CHP has continued to report greater success in OIS incidents (both better terminal performance, as well as intermediate barrier ability) with their .40 S&W 180 gr JHP than with the .357 Magnum 125 gr JHP they previously issued.
Where is CHP reporting this and to whom?
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Let’s compare apples to apples—below is factory test data from various Winchester LE loads in different calibers, Ranger-T as well as Ranger Bonded. How does the .357 Sig compare to the other service calibers with respect to intermediate barrier penetration?

FBI Test Protocols:
Bare Gelatin at 10ft
Denim, 4 Layers at 10ft
Heavy Clothing at 10ft
Steel, 2 pieces of 20 gauge at 10ft
Wallboard, 2 pieces of 1/2" gypsum board at 10ft
Plywood, 1 piece of 3/4" AA fir plywood at 10ft
Automobile Glass, 1 piece 1/4" laminated safety glass set at a 45 degree angle with an offset of 15 degrees at 10ft

9mm 127gr +P+ RA9TA at 1250fps:
Bare Gel: 12.3”/.64”
Denim: 12.2”/.68”
Heavy Cloth: 12.2”/.68”
Wallboard: 12.1”/.66”
Plywood: 12”/.68”
Steel: 20.5”/.40”
Auto Glass: 9.4”/.48”

9mm 147gr RA9T at 990fps:
Bare Gel: 13.9”/.65”
Through Denim: 14.5”/.66”
Through Heavy Cloth: 14”/.66”
Through Wallboard: 15”/.67”
Through Plywood: 14.8”/.62”
Through Steel: 17”/.45”
Through Auto Glass: 10.8”/.52”

357Sig 125gr RA357SIGT at 1350fps:
Bare Gel: 10.9”/.63”
Denim: 12.1”/.66”
Heavy Cloth: 10.7”/.69”
Wallboard: 15.4”/.48”
Plywood: 12.2”/.66”
Steel: 23.4”/.41”
Auto Glass: 10.3”/.49”

.40S&W 180gr RA40T at 990fps:
Bare Gel: 13.8”/.60”
Denim: 14.3”/.70”
Heavy Cloth: 13.4”/.64”
Wallboard: 13.1”/.66”
Plywood: 15.1”/.64”
Steel: 17”/.52”
Auto Glass: 12”/.61”

.45ACP 230gr +P RA45TP at 990fps:
Bare Gel: 13.2”/.79”
Denim: 15.2”/.78”
Heavy Cloth: 15.7”/.78”
Wallboard: 13.8”/.75”
Plywood: 14.6”/.77”
Steel: 20.6”/.53”
Auto Glass: 13.6”/.60”

How about bonded bullets?

9mm 124gr +P at 1180 fps:
Bare Gel: 12.6”/.68”
Denim: 18.7”/.54”
Heavy Cloth: 18.2”/.56”
Wallboard: 11.9”/.64”
Plywood: 15.8”/.57”
Steel: 22”/.42”
Auto Glass: 12.7”/.58”

9mm 147gr at 995fps:
Bare Gel: 14.7”/.62”
Denim: 16.5”/.59”
Heavy Cloth: 15.8”/.58”
Wallboard: 16.7”/.56”
Plywood: 16.5”/.59”
Steel: 19”/.42”
Auto Glass: 12.6”/.55”

357Sig 125gr RA357SB at 1350fps:
Bare Gel: 12.5”/.59”
Denim: 15.9”/.57”
Heavy Cloth: 16.9”/.55”
Wallboard: 14.7”/.62”
Plywood: 16.0”/.60”
Steel: 21.7”/.44”
Auto Glass: 12.8”/.62”

.40S&W 180gr at 1070fps:
Bare Gel: 14.8”/.67”
Denim: 21.8”/.51”
Heavy Cloth: 19”/.59”
Wallboard: 16.7”/.61”
Plywood: 15.5”/.62”
Steel: 14.8”/.55”
Auto Glass: 12.4”/.63”

.45ACP 230gr RA45B at 905fps:
Bare Gel: 14”/.73”
Denim: 15.8”/.67”
Heavy Cloth: 15.8”/.68”
Wallboard: 14.7”/.69”
Plywood: 16.5”/.74”
Steel: 14.8”/.56”
Auto Glass: 12.5”/.66”

As can be seen above, basically all the standard service calibers work when using good quality ammunition. The platform picked tends to dictate the caliber.
Like I said, they were designed to perform the same according to all FBI protocols. Clearly the 357SIG loads still will penetrate more hard barrier material than the others, as many have shown.
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Don't over-think this subject; projectiles, particularly handgun bullets, simply poke holes in things, just like arrows, spears, daggers, or shivs. The only difference is that bullets allow you to poke the holes from further away... Since shot placement is the key with handguns, if given the choice, I'd much rather be defended by a guy who practices with 500 rounds per month of 9mm, than one who caries a .357 Sig, but only shoots 500 rounds per year.
Actually, arrows, spears, and daggars, mechanically slice flesh, where bullets generally plow a path. But the paths bullets plow are not created equal, between the spectrum of 9mm - 10mm, as many have posted over time.
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As always, the most important things to focus on are:

-- Cultivate a warrior mindset
-- Invest in competent, thorough initial training and then maintain skills with regular ongoing practice
-- Acquire a reliable and durable weapon system
Those are very good skills to start with. After that, some rounds clearly outperform others.
Quote:
-- Purchase a consistent, robust performing duty/self-defense load in sufficient quantities (at least 1000 rounds) then STOP worrying about the nuances of handgun ammunition terminal performance.
Here I can't agree depending on the individual.
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Old 02-01-2010, 13:48   #103
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Glock20c10mm, better be careful, or DocGKR will come and be mean to you. He is after all, a dentist. They know more about bullets' terminal effects than anyone. Even trauma surgeons...
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Old 02-01-2010, 14:11   #104
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Glock20c10mm, better be careful, or DocGKR will come and be mean to you. He is after all, a dentist. They know more about bullets' terminal effects than anyone. Even trauma surgeons...
Dentists! they're everywhere! Or was that ninjas?
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Old 02-01-2010, 15:40   #105
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Originally Posted by uz2bUSMC View Post
Riiiight. Just like you said this about the 10mm, which is happily on the rise.

And you fire thousands of rounds at cardboard and now you can speak of the .357 sig's merits. Does the gun talk to you everytime you pull the trigger? Are you a target whisperer? Pat, do you ever have anything with substance to say? You never back anything up, all you can do is say "Fackler, Roberts... Fackler, Roberts"... who have not proven anything in the way of terminal ballistics. What's the most recent thing Fackler has put out?

One day you'll realize that gel doesn't tell you what will happens on the street. The street tells you what will happen on the street. When you see this you may change your name back to "355sigfan".
Look at sales figures. The 10mm is not on the rise. Its at the same level as the 41 mag and other obscure rounds. By the way citing experts in the field is BACKING UP WHAT I HAVE TO SAY. I know you have a hard time understanding such things. Time for you to step back post less and listen more. By the way you know absolutely nothing about what happens on the street.
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Old 02-01-2010, 15:44   #106
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"Dr. Martin Fackler wrong that article. The 357 sig expands the same as the 9mm with simular bullets and it penetrates about the same. Those are the two factors that matter. Muzzle energy means zip at handgun levels."

Hogwash, with that argument a .38 special is the same as a .357 magnum. Shot placement is the key but greater muzzle energy = more energy in the target and more trauma.
If the 38 expands the same and goes as deep then it will do the same damage as the 357 mag. Its all about shot placement, penetration and bullet expansion. Energy means little to nothing at handgun levels. Human tissue is elastic so unless you have enough energy to rip tissue past what the bullet touches it means nothing.
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Old 02-01-2010, 16:26   #107
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Why LE is buying it? Excuse me if I sound cynical. They have budgets. If they don't spend taxpayer money the budget gets reduced. Is it because the 357 Sig is such a manstopper? I don't think there is enough empirical evidence to justify one caliber over another. If the LEO had to purchase his own sidearm, train with it, clean it and depend upon it......heck, it would be just like a teenager who has to save for his first car because his daddy won't buy it for him. He'll work on it, clean it and it will run forever. But that's the way government works. One agency tests and tests and says, "We have to replace such and such with 45 GAP or 357 SIG!" "Why?" they're asked! "Because it is such a "manstopper and we're outgunned." Why are so many civilian would-be Glock buyers standing in line for LE guns that are "retired"? Because they know that there are a good 100k rounds left in the original barrel.
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Old 02-01-2010, 16:48   #108
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Why LE is buying it? Excuse me if I sound cynical. They have budgets. If they don't spend taxpayer money the budget gets reduced. Is it because the 357 Sig is such a manstopper? I don't think there is enough empirical evidence to justify one caliber over another. If the LEO had to purchase his own sidearm, train with it, clean it and depend upon it......heck, it would be just like a teenager who has to save for his first car because his daddy won't buy it for him. He'll work on it, clean it and it will run forever. But that's the way government works. One agency tests and tests and says, "We have to replace such and such with 45 GAP or 357 SIG!" "Why?" they're asked! "Because it is such a "manstopper and we're outgunned." Why are so many civilian would-be Glock buyers standing in line for LE guns that are "retired"? Because they know that there are a good 100k rounds left in the original barrel.
Oh thats why, because if they didn't buy new weapons and more expensive ammo, the budget would be reduced. Now I completely understand dealing with a lower capacity and more severe recoil, these are sacrifices officers make in order to retain their current budgets. Why didn't you tell us earlier?

Please take the time to read the other posts before you post stuff like this. Have you read any of the links? There is a plethera of information compiled from people who actually have used this round after actually using other rounds like 9mm I have yet to hear any feedback from people using the .357sig round in a shooting and finding it not to thier tastes. Law enforcement is using the round because its working better, better than 9mm, better than 9mm +p+.

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Old 02-01-2010, 16:53   #109
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Originally Posted by Alaskapopo View Post
If the 38 expands the same and goes as deep then it will do the same damage as the 357 mag. Its all about shot placement, penetration and bullet expansion. Energy means little to nothing at handgun levels. Human tissue is elastic so unless you have enough energy to rip tissue past what the bullet touches it means nothing.
Pat
I have to disagree. Add sudden pressure into a water based system, and you will get pressure spikes all over the place. In various papers regarding pressure wave theory, pigs (test subjects) showed brain hemorrhaging due to the increase in hydraulic pressure which was picked up via sensor in major arteries.

Tissue damage is what everyone is talking about and what ballistics gelatin tests, but the fact of the matter is that a majority of the human body is water, and will react as such.
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Old 02-01-2010, 17:13   #110
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Oh thats why, because if they didn't buy new weapons and more expensive ammo, the budget would be reduced. Now I completely understand dealing with a lower capacity and more severe recoil, these are sacrifices officers make in order to retain their current budgets. Why didn't you tell us earlier?

Please take the time to read the other posts before you post stuff like this. Have you read any of the links? There is a plethera of information compiled from people who actually have used this round after actually using other rounds like 9mm I have yet to hear any feedback from people using the .357sig round in a shooting and finding it not to thier tastes. Law enforcement is using the round because its working better, better than 9mm, better than 9mm +p+.

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A lot more cops are using the 9mm than the 357 sig so the 9mm must be the better round.
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Old 02-01-2010, 17:38   #111
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Originally Posted by Alaskapopo View Post
A lot more cops are using the 9mm than the 357 sig so the 9mm must be the better round.
Pat
Please read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum to help expand your logical reasoning.
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Old 02-01-2010, 17:59   #112
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Please read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum to help expand your logical reasoning.
I was making a pun on the person I was quoting. That went right over your head. Also directing someone to Wikipedia for knowledge is laughable at best.
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Old 02-01-2010, 18:14   #113
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Look at sales figures. The 10mm is not on the rise. Its at the same level as the 41 mag and other obscure rounds. By the way citing experts in the field is BACKING UP WHAT I HAVE TO SAY. I know you have a hard time understanding such things. Time for you to step back post less and listen more. By the way you know absolutely nothing about what happens on the street.
Pat
I doubt you even know any experts but I'd like to know who you talked to, because everything is different in Pat's little wolrd. I know more about what happens on the street than you think. I actually have REAL contacts. Not alaskan moonshiners that live in the backwoods.
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Old 02-01-2010, 18:19   #114
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Originally Posted by Alaskapopo View Post
If the 38 expands the same and goes as deep then it will do the same damage as the 357 mag. Its all about shot placement, penetration and bullet expansion. Energy means little to nothing at handgun levels. Human tissue is elastic so unless you have enough energy to rip tissue past what the bullet touches it means nothing.
Pat
Still needing a terminal ballistics class aswell. You have no idea how bullet construction relates to temporary cavitation I see. Energy is useless if it is not imparted upon it's target and you can have moderate amounts energy from a pistol round do better than a rifle that can't transfer the energy.
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Old 02-01-2010, 18:22   #115
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I was making a pun on the person I was quoting. That went right over your head. Also directing someone to Wikipedia for knowledge is laughable at best.
Depends on who that person is...
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Old 02-01-2010, 18:22   #116
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Is there anyone around here with the intel behind the 357SIGs growing popularity with LE and the cumulative reasons why?

More/Less, it really is simply a fast 9 with inherently near perfect functioning characteristics in pistols. It has it's own line of 125gr bullets from most bullet manufacturers to handle the added velocity.

Yet it produces a little more recoil than 9mm and LE are still opting for it. Then again it doesn't recoil anymore than 40 (differently yes, more no). I suppose muzzle flash at night isn't much of an issue anymore with the low flash powders availble today.

But still, why is LE popularity still growing with the 357SIG? Are they seeing a difference in physical wounding characteristics? We do in animals, so I suppose we do in humans too.

Is it proving to stop fights faster? What's giving this little round so much clout? Anybody know anything definitive?

In Arizona you can get virtually as much of it as you want at just about any Walmart when everything else is sold out. Though most of the Walmarts are still limiting us to 6 boxes per day.


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Old 02-01-2010, 18:23   #117
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I doubt you even know any experts but I'd like to know who you talked to, because everything is different in Pat's little wolrd. I know more about what happens on the street than you think. I actually have REAL contacts. Not alaskan moonshiners that live in the backwoods.
You are so juvenile. You always resort to personal attacks and temper tantrums. Grow up and start acting like an adult. As for real experts I have had conversations with Evan Marshal and Dr. Roberts himself. I doubt you have any contacts. You're vulgar. immature, and unlearned and those are qualities that professionals don't like to associate with. So I am not going to put any creditably to your claim you have contacts. Contacts at the local gun shop maybe.
Pat
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Old 02-01-2010, 18:39   #118
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You are so juvenile. You always resort to personal attacks and temper tantrums. Grow up and start acting like an adult. As for real experts I have had conversations with Evan Marshal and Dr. Roberts himself. I doubt you have any contacts. You're vulgar. immature, and unlearned and those are qualities that professionals don't like to associate with. So I am not going to put any creditably to your claim you have contacts. Contacts at the local gun shop maybe.
Pat
That's funny, you have had conversations with these people but in a conversation we had a while back, you didn't even know who Duncan MacPherson was...ok I believe you.
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Old 02-01-2010, 18:44   #119
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I was making a pun on the person I was quoting.
Cute cover story.
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That went right over your head. Also directing someone to Wikipedia for knowledge is laughable at best.
The Wiki entry pretty much matches my college textbook. BTW, you used an Appeal to Ridicule fallacy there with your Wiki comment.
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Last edited by Mrs_Esterhouse; 02-01-2010 at 18:47..
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Old 02-01-2010, 18:44   #120
Free Radical
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaskapopo View Post
Look at sales figures. The 10mm is not on the rise. Its at the same level as the 41 mag and other obscure rounds.

Please cite your source for this BS.
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