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Old 02-01-2010, 20:47   #161
unit1069
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As an owner of two 9mm and one .357sig pistols let me state my views.

For civilian self-defense under the most common situations 9mm is sufficient to stop the threat.

However, there are certain circumstances where 9mm falls short of what's required and that's why the search for a better service caliber began. Highway Patrol, Air Marshals, Secret Service, State and Federal Conservation Agents, urban/rural police departments, ... they're issued calibers (.40 S&W/.357sig) that have proven capable of overcoming most of these "certain circumstances".

I have no way of proving it, but I believe 10mm would be a popular law enforcement choice in many jurisdictions --- except for the ever-present ACLU-type interest groups who'd sue after every OIS on the grounds of premedited intent to kill. I suspect many of the large metropolitan police departments who have not stepped up from 9mm have a long history of lawsuits and don't want to make things even more difficult for themselves.

For those agencies who have adopted more powerful calibers than 9mm I have read nothing in the way of regret for having done so. Quite the opposite, if anecdotal evidence offered by LEO forum thread participants is believable.

The articles by Mas Ayoob, based upon his interviews with LEO personnel and ballistics researchers, support the "street cred" of .357sig. If I remember correctly, Mas Ayoob's personal choice of sidearms is .45ACP so I see no reason for anyone to question his input.

If I could have only one pistol from the ones I own I'd choose the .357sig.
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Old 02-01-2010, 20:47   #162
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Well, I'm done contibuting to ruining the thread. I'll be the bigger man (not physically of course, some of us have seen you know who) and keep my mouth shut.
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Old 02-01-2010, 20:48   #163
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Originally Posted by Alaskapopo View Post
Cool glad to see it finally hit the shelves. I have not seen one since their announcement. Although I have no way of knowing the gun you posted is made in 2009 without the serial number. And if the round were that popular they would not have dropped production of the gun in the first place sport.
By the way according to uz2bUSMC you must be gay as you posted your NRA certification in your sig line.
Pat
LOL...If you were going to call Colt to verify my SN, just ask them how many they made in 2009 instead (if you do find out, please let me know, I am curious). Also, Cabelas has them for anybody looking for one. Local shop can find one and transfer it in.

As for the rest, I am quite frankly perplexed by the discussion.
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Old 02-01-2010, 20:50   #164
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LOL...If you were going to call Colt to verify my SN, just ask them how many they made in 2009 instead (if you do find out, please let me know, I am curious). Also, Cabelas has them for anybody looking for one. Local shop can find one and transfer it in.

As for the rest, I am quite frankly perplexed by the discussion.
My apologies.
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Old 02-01-2010, 20:51   #165
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Here is mine, manufactured 2009:

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That's a mighty fine looking gun, remat.
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Old 02-01-2010, 20:53   #166
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Well, I'm done contibuting to ruining the thread. I'll be the bigger man (not physically of course, some of us have seen you know who) and keep my mouth shut.
Now come the fat jokes. Seriously you need to grow up.
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Old 02-01-2010, 20:54   #167
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Originally Posted by remat View Post
LOL...If you were going to call Colt to verify my SN, just ask them how many they made in 2009 instead (if you do find out, please let me know, I am curious). Also, Cabelas has them for anybody looking for one. Local shop can find one and transfer it in.

As for the rest, I am quite frankly perplexed by the discussion.
Your word is good enough for me. I am curious as to when they first hit the streets.
Pat
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Old 02-01-2010, 20:56   #168
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This debate of "show me the proof...." reminds me of the religious debate of "well prove me wrong because I can't prove what I'm saying as fact". It's pretty annoying.

Edit: This was directed at Alaskapopo and anyone else who uses that excuse.

Also, how is this thread not locked yet! haha
The problem is the 10mmfanboys made their claim first. They need to show proof first.
Pat
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Old 02-01-2010, 21:02   #169
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That's a mighty fine looking gun, remat.
Thank you very much! It has been flawless out of the box (I know they say that is impossible in a new 1911)


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Originally Posted by Alaskapopo View Post
Your word is good enough for me. I am curious as to when they first hit the streets.
Pat
Not sure. I can tell you that it was hard to find. I had called almost every shop in Western WA looking for one. Cabelas could transfer one in but I got lucky and found one at Federal Way Guns, which incidentally, is the place that has another on the shelf (as of yesterday). They are no where as easy to find as an Govt XSE.

To keep the thread on topic, anybody ever convert a 1911 to 357Sig?

Sig was going to offer it in their GSR/Revolution line but for whatever reason never did.
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Old 02-01-2010, 21:06   #170
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Thank you very much! It has been flawless out of the box (I know they say that is impossible in a new 1911)




Not sure. I can tell you that it was hard to find. I had called almost every shop in Western WA looking for one. Cabelas could transfer one in but I got lucky and found one at Federal Way Guns, which incidentally, is the place that has another on the shelf (as of yesterday). They are no where as easy to find as an Govt XSE.

To keep the thread on topic, anybody ever convert a 1911 to 357Sig?

Sig was going to offer it in their GSR/Revolution line but for whatever reason never did.
I believe you would have issues with feeding if you tried to convert a 1911 to 357 sig. Due to the long bullet jump from the mag to the chamber. Getting 9mm and 40 sw 1911's to feed is tricky and the 357 sig would be even more so due to its nose diving tendency of the bottle neck rounds. I had a 40sw Browning HP converted to 357 sig by Cylinder and Slide and it never did feed right. They had to tweak the mags a lot. I do believe I saw a custom 1911 once about 8 years ago in 357 sig in a gun rag article. Not sure how they do in real life.
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Old 02-01-2010, 21:29   #171
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Alaskapopo -why are you even in Caliber Corner. I would think hanging around those other "tactical" forums would be better suited, because after having read all through this you basically think all calibers are of the same effectiveness. More companies are making 10mm guns than before. Four years ago I did not have any and now I own 4. No we do not have statistics, but the interest in the caliber has grown.

I have not talked to any "ballistic experts", but I have spoken with several highway patrol persons who are very happy with their 357 sigs and consider it a big step up from the 9mm. That means more to me. Also my own experience with animals shot has shown me a more devastating effect of the 357 sig than a 9mm. Now maybe not all 357 sigs rounds are the same. Since I do not have to shoot through barriers, I use the Corbon 125gr Seirra JHP, which leaves my G32 at about 1,430fps. I have found it just as effective as a 125gr 357 magnum, but I remember that you said that the 40 was a step up from the Remington 125 gr 357 Magnum. I have been shooting for a long time and have never heard anyone make that statement. I own both and I do not believe it is even comparable. I always wonder about people who have to put everything they may have done on their signature line. I may only be a backwood bumpkin and have never taken or instructed SWAT entry tactics class, but I do know the effect of bullets on living animals, and trust people who trust their lives on their side arm.
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Old 02-01-2010, 21:52   #172
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Knowing who Duncan MacPherson is and knowing Evan Marshall and Dr. Roberts is two different matters. If you don't believe me go to Evans forum and ask him if he has ever spoken to me or sent me free ammo for testing about 6 years back.

As for Dr. Roberts go to http://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=91 and ask him if he had a telephone conversation with me about 3 weeks ago where we talked about everything from the 5.7 to the 6.8. I dare you.

All you are is an internet bully. Grow up and act like a civilized adult.
Pat
I don't think I'd be bragging about talking to Dr. Roberts. Not unless you are talking about how pretty your teeth are.
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Old 02-01-2010, 22:04   #173
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I don't think I'd be bragging about talking to Dr. Roberts. Not unless you are talking about how pretty your teeth are.
Yea that just shows how ignorant on the subject you are. Yes his current day job is a dentist. But he has done a lot of study and research and testing on wound ballistics more than any other person save Dr. Fackler himself. So save your ignorant comments.
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Old 02-01-2010, 22:08   #174
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Alaskapopo -why are you even in Caliber Corner. I would think hanging around those other "tactical" forums would be better suited, because after having read all through this you basically think all calibers are of the same effectiveness. More companies are making 10mm guns than before. Four years ago I did not have any and now I own 4. No we do not have statistics, but the interest in the caliber has grown.

I have not talked to any "ballistic experts", but I have spoken with several highway patrol persons who are very happy with their 357 sigs and consider it a big step up from the 9mm. That means more to me. Also my own experience with animals shot has shown me a more devastating effect of the 357 sig than a 9mm. Now maybe not all 357 sigs rounds are the same. Since I do not have to shoot through barriers, I use the Corbon 125gr Seirra JHP, which leaves my G32 at about 1,430fps. I have found it just as effective as a 125gr 357 magnum, but I remember that you said that the 40 was a step up from the Remington 125 gr 357 Magnum. I have been shooting for a long time and have never heard anyone make that statement. I own both and I do not believe it is even comparable. I always wonder about people who have to put everything they may have done on their signature line. I may only be a backwood bumpkin and have never taken or instructed SWAT entry tactics class, but I do know the effect of bullets on living animals, and trust people who trust their lives on their side arm.
Frankly what some road toad thinks does not matter much. Most of the guys you have talked to have probably never been in a gun fight and if they have I doubt they were in a gun fight where they could compare the 9mm and the 357 sig under simular conditions. You need to look at the big picture for that and not on the war stories of a few cops.

What matters are the stats collected from shooting results and autopsy's performed.

Frankly I could give a crap less what you think about me or my signature line. If you like the 357 sig by all means carry it. But don't try to justify your choice with a bunch of conjecture and BS. I have had to kill live animals as well good for you. I also have to trust my sidearm day in and day out to perform if I ever need it.

Pat
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Old 02-01-2010, 23:38   #175
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its always fun to watch a good caliber war. My 2 cents is I can understand why many shooters prefer the 9mm. In my experience the 9 is quicker on followups and more capacity. Some of us have Dirty Harry syndrome, including me. I am heavily invested in the 10mm 2 identical completly loaded up G29's with about 450 of aftermarket parts in each one and a new G20 that I got NIB for 465.00 and could not resist and hundreds in reloading supplies for the 10.
I just had a long discussion with a very experienced LEO and he made a very rational logical argument of the benefits of less powerful weapons, that very frankly have altered my thinking. I will however stick with my 10's becasue of my investment (I still love them)meaning more practice to become the best 10mm shooter I can be.

There are 2 sides to every disagreement. It gets back to what I have always said. Shoot the gun you have the most confidence in. Thats a personal choice becasue only you have to shoot it.

Please read my signature . Don't be
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Old 02-01-2010, 23:43   #176
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If you like Glocks get a 9mm. The rest have issues.
Neither the G20C I used to have or the G29 I have now have or have had any issues. What issues are they supposed to have??? I think you're over reaching with your statement. Besides that the 357SIG is generally considered to be as clear as any in issues by merit of the bottleneck cartridge design. Did you handload a bunch of 357SIG that ended up being poor performers???

And what about the 40S&W chambered glocks? An extreme amount of LE/Agencies carry them. Someone must have forgot to tell them about the issues. Then there's the Glock 45s. Someone dropped a G21 out of an airplane. When he found it only the bottom of the magwell was still above ground. It fired perfectly. Not to mention all the other torture tests he put it through and some mega amount of rounds through it and it still operated flawlessly.

I might be going out on a limb here, but I don't believe the majority of Glocks have any issues at all, and more than likely less than the guns provided through other manufacturers.
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In a strict wound ballistics sense, over-penetration is better than under-penetration because the bullet will at least have the potential to intersect and bore through vital cardiovascular structures. But over-penetration is also a waste of wounding potential.
Can you elaborate?

About over penetration you say;
1) good to intersect all vital structures possible, and/but
2) waste of wounding potential

Isn't that contradictory?
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In comparison, many 9mm 147-grain subsonic JHP bullets demonstrate better penetration and expansion performance than .357 SIG 125-grain JHPs.
How much better expansion when leaving out HSTs, as HSTs are basically the one exception to the rule?
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Old 02-02-2010, 00:36   #177
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As you increase bullet size and mass from 9 mm/357 Sig, to .40 S&W, to .45 ACP, more tissue is crushed, resulting in a larger permanent cavity.
So 9mm is a poor choice?
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In addition, the larger bullets often offer better performance through intermediate barriers.
How does that matter if all bullets compared meet all FBI barrier penetration protocols, but then the relatively small bullet of the 357SIG continues to go above and beyond? Where does that leave the larger bullets?
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Anyone interested in this topic should read and periodically re-read, “Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness” by Urey Patrick of the FBI FTU, as this remains the single best discussion of the wound ballistic requirements of handguns used for self-defense.
SSA Urey Patrick of the Firearms Training Unit, FBI Academy, Quantico, VA, when asked; "Are you saying the 9mm is no good?" , replied;

"No, we are saying it is as good as the 38 Special, which has served us for a long time. It has severe limitations, which we are not willing to accept. It is woefully inadequate for shooting at people in cars, for example, and over half of our shootings involve vehicles. It is a marginally adequate wounding agent. We have had a number of 9mm shootings over the past couple of years, and if you define a good shooting as one in which the subject stops whatever he was doing when he gets shot, we have yet to have a good one, and we are hitting our adversaries multiple times. We have shot half a dozen dogs in the past year and have not killed one yet, although we have run up a significant veteranary bill. The 9mm with proper ammunition is not a bad round. It is just no where near as effective as the 10mm and 45 offerings and the disparity between it and the larger calibers has remained a constant throughout all the testing we have done over the past two years."

That quoted, are you sure he's on your side?
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Keeping in mind that handguns generally offer poor incapacitation potential, bullets with effective terminal performance are available in all of the most commonly used duty pistol calibers. Basically all the standard service calibers work when using good quality ammunition.
So lets get this straight......Incapacitation potential is POOR, terminal performance is EFFECTIVE, and all service calibers WORK using quality ammo. So they're poor but effective and work.

Maybe someone could enlighten the rest of us with definitions to the terms: poor, effective, and work. Sounds like a bunch of rubbish to me.
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Its almost laughable how worked up people get over caliber selection.
So you're almost laughing at yourself?
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In the end of the day its really not that important.
No, not at all, just life and death, no big deal.
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9mm is agood choice because it offers good terminal performance in a small package that is easy to shoot and generally more reliable than other semi auto pistol calibers.
Pat
You mean for those that want to blow off what Urey Patrick of the FBI FTU said in reguard to the 9mm being woefully inadequate among things that make it less than desireable? Notice that the FBI still doesn't use 9mm.

It's like a friend of mine always says; The 9mm against BGs is akin to using a BB gun to stop a freight train.


Good Shooting,
Craig
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Old 02-02-2010, 00:42   #178
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So 9mm is a poor choice?

How does that matter if all bullets compared meet all FBI barrier penetration protocols, but then the relatively small bullet of the 357SIG continues to go above and beyond? Where does that leave the larger bullets?

SSA Urey Patrick of the Firearms Training Unit, FBI Academy, Quantico, VA, when asked; "Are you saying the 9mm is no good?" , replied;

"No, we are saying it is as good as the 38 Special, which has served us for a long time. It has severe limitations, which we are not willing to accept. It is woefully inadequate for shooting at people in cars, for example, and over half of our shootings involve vehicles. It is a marginally adequate wounding agent. We have had a number of 9mm shootings over the past couple of years, and if you define a good shooting as one in which the subject stops whatever he was doing when he gets shot, we have yet to have a good one, and we are hitting our adversaries multiple times. We have shot half a dozen dogs in the past year and have not killed one yet, although we have run up a significant veteranary bill. The 9mm with proper ammunition is not a bad round. It is just no where near as effective as the 10mm and 45 offerings and the disparity between it and the larger calibers has remained a constant throughout all the testing we have done over the past two years."

That quoted, are you sure he's on your side?

So lets get this straight......Incapacitation potential is POOR, terminal performance is EFFECTIVE, and all service calibers WORK using quality ammo. So they're poor but effective and work.

Maybe someone could enlighten the rest of us with definitions to the terms: poor, effective, and work. Sounds like a bunch of rubbish to me.

So you're almost laughing at yourself?

No, not at all, just life and death, no big deal.

You mean for those that want to blow off what Urey Patrick of the FBI FTU said in reguard to the 9mm being woefully inadequate among things that make it less than desireable? Notice that the FBI still doesn't use 9mm.

It's like a friend of mine always says; The 9mm against BGs is akin to using a BB gun to stop a freight train.


Good Shooting,
Craig
Actually Craig a great many FBI agents still carry 9mm's by choice. Not all carry Glock 22's and 23's. I would much rather carry a Sig 9mm that is reliable than a Glock 40 that historically are not.

As to my original comments that you took out of context. You do get more tissue damage as bore size goes up however you also get more recoil. Since we are not shooting single shot pistols you can not simple take tissue destruction by itself. Say your shooting a 10mm with full house loads and you have 1 seconds to fire you may get 2 to 3 accurate rounds off at close range. With the 9mm at the same range you will get more like 4 to 6 rounds. More bullets in the same amount of time means more tissue damage which means better stopping power. Frankly I don't really much care what the FBI says on the subject of stopping power. I don't take advice on selecting handguns and calibers from attorneys and accountants with badges. If I want advice on such matters I will turn to people who study shootings and wound ballistics like Dr. Roberts and Dr. Fackler. By the way you need to look up the issues the Indian State Police had with their Glock 40's. In fact do a search on the net regarding Glock 22's and weapon mounted lights. I am surprised this is new information to you. Top firearms instructors like Larry Vickers say if you want a Glock stick to 9mm.
Pat
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Old 02-02-2010, 00:45   #179
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Also, how is this thread not locked yet! haha
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Old 02-02-2010, 00:50   #180
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