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Old 02-10-2010, 12:50   #326
N/Apower
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Originally Posted by uz2bUSMC View Post
This means you did not read the thread, you're all wrong. The operative acronym in your post is FMJ. If you read the post you'll understand what I am talking about.
Both cause tissue to be forced away from their path at a 90* angle. Further, we are talking about hydraulic pressure in a system (vessels). A system with a myriad of valves, and weak-points all throughout it. The impact of a projectile on a vessel in the chest would cause plenty of other issues before it ruptured something in the brain.

Further, whether or not one is to accept this, "TBI" as fact, one cannot dispute that it is highly un-reliable. A psychological stop is much more likely than a "TBI" stop, if you will. There are numerous people alive who will attest to that, after having survived a GSW to the thoracic cavity.

Yes, there are things beyond what jello shows us that occur, and I cannot rule out that ruptured vessels in the brain may occur, but I can say that that is the last thing I want to be banking on as a mechanism of "stopping" someone from their course of action.

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What accounts for instant incapacitation? Are you going to dodge this question again? When an animal falls instantly or a person, what's happeneing? It doesn't have ****** to do with "Hollywood"... there's no time to process the information.

And the firearms tactical link is about as rooky of a move that the 9 is fine camper can make, jeez. Good thing Urey's info is so fresh and new

What accounts for when this doesn't happen? Not every heart/lung-shot deer drops in its tracks. By all logic, this means that TBI is just as likely as it is not, even assuming that is the mechanism at all. Your own example shows the fallacy considering it a quantifiable, reliable wounding mechanism.

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Yea I'm bias of his bad info, period. Fackler and his chronies will say anything to sell his Koolaid. If he's such an angel, and soo concerned for the agents, why did he publicly put down Dr. Roberts?

I can tell you don't know as much as you'd like people to believe.
You think Courtney and Courtney and Dr. Roberts aren't peddaling their own kool-aid? Everyone is selling something. Everyone has an agenda. It's just life.

The fact that there is a debate at all shows that there are things we do not understand. Some scientists stick to measurable, or more easily quantifiable outcomes more strictly than others. Considering the myriad of responses animals and humans have in response to piercing trauma, it is impractical to try to credit the external force with 100% of the outcome. Therefor, I feel that very tangible tests are best when measuring ammunition against ammunition.

That which produces the largest permanent hole, has better effect than that which produces the smallest, with regard to cessation of target action. As the disparity narrows, so does the effectiveness difference, to the point to where a smaller permanent cavity producing projectile, in a certain circumstance, may do better than a different one, because of immeasurable phenomina, or phenomina that is so numerous and inter-related as to be immesurable.

At what point does TC outweigh CC? To what extent? Does it ever?

These are all intangibles.

If I have a choice between equal CC and TC, and equal CC and larger TC, Obviously I want the equal CC and larger TC, but what if it were reversed?

Beyond blood volume loss, expansion, and penetration, and tissue crushed, this is a science of grays. The "gello shooters" are not ignoring this, rather they are choosing not to try to measure that which cannot be quantified and sticking with what can.

Science seeks to quantify what can be observed and measured. If you wish to place your faith in that which cannot, I suggest religion instead.

Last edited by N/Apower; 02-10-2010 at 13:10..
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Old 02-10-2010, 14:16   #327
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N/A to be honest, I only began reading your response... then quit once I saw you were still lost.

Do you know what retarding forces are? Do you understand the differences between fmj and hollow points, and what their differences coorelate to regarding retarding forces?

You don't understand the beginning but wish to debate at the end. I'm not even going to bother repeating everything that has been discussed adnauseum, because someone wants to assume they have a grand understanding of the topics at hand but fail to demonstrate the basics.
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Old 02-10-2010, 14:18   #328
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wanna fight?
Dawn tomorrow, ball peen hammers at 10'.
Good day sir!
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Old 02-10-2010, 14:21   #329
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Dawn tomorrow, ball peen hammers at 10'.
Good day sir!
I still might not like you, but I might like the way you think... sometimes.

Yea, Yea, I know... you don't give a **** !
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Old 02-10-2010, 14:30   #330
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N/A to be honest, I only began reading your response... then quit once I saw you were still lost.

Do you know what retarding forces are? Do you understand the differences between fmj and hollow points, and what their differences coorelate to regarding retarding forces?

You don't understand the beginning but wish to debate at the end. I'm not even going to bother repeating everything that has been discussed adnauseum, because someone wants to assume they have a grand understanding of the topics at hand but fail to demonstrate the basics.

Yes, I understand retarding-forces. I understand energy transfer. I understand force/time equations.

However, do you understand anatomy? How much knowledge do you possess of the human body and how it is effected by trauma?

From what I can tell, you have a good grasp of physics and logic, but a poor grasp of anatomy and trauma, especially with regards to the circulatory system and the brain, and how these organs react to trauma of various types, and how this trauma is detected in a medical setting and manifested in a "victim" of said trauma. I have sat through lecture after lecture on TIA's and brain-bleeds and torsion brain-injuries and whatnot. I spend several days a week in the ICU. I have talked with a Dr who has saved someone who had been shot multiple times in the chest with a .45.

Admittedly, I have a LOT left to learn.

I think you have under-sold the human body, it's resilience, and its intricacies and that you are trying to apply a fixed, black-white definition to a dynamic situation, and it's not going to work.
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Old 02-10-2010, 14:37   #331
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Yes, I understand retarding-forces. I understand energy transfer. I understand force/time equations.

However, do you understand anatomy? How much knowledge do you possess of the human body and how it is effected by trauma?

From what I can tell, you have a good grasp of physics and logic, but a poor grasp of anatomy and trauma, especially with regards to the circulatory system and the brain, and how these organs react to trauma of various types, and how this trauma is detected in a medical setting and manifested in a "victim" of said trauma. I have sat through lecture after lecture on TIA's and brain-bleeds and torsion brain-injuries and whatnot. I spend several days a week in the ICU. I have talked with a Dr who has saved someone who had been shot multiple times in the chest with a .45.

Admittedly, I have a LOT left to learn.

I think you have under-sold the human body, it's resilience, and its intricacies and that you are trying to apply a fixed, black-white definition to a dynamic situation, and it's not going to work.
Look man, I have a good understanding of anatomy and other things. I have to say that I do not believe that you possess the knowledge of retarding forces that you believe you do. If you did, you would EASILY understand how a fmj would not impart it's energy towards the retarding forces the way an expanding projectile would, period. It's not even a discussion point but yet, here we are.

Now that doctor you talked to in the ICU ask him what bullets were being used and more importantly, ask him what effect it had on the street.
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Old 02-10-2010, 14:42   #332
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Look man, I have a good understanding of anatomy and other things. I have to say that I do not believe that you possess the knowledge of retarding forces that you believe you do. If you did, you would EASILY understand how a fmj would not impart it's energy towards the retarding forces the way an expanding projectile would, period. It's not even a discussion point but yet, here we are.

Now that doctor you talked to in the ICU ask him what bullets were being used and more importantly, ask him what effect it had on the street.

The Dr. I spoke with was not in the ICU setting I am currently in. You will further discover many cases "from the street" (one involving Officer Coates, another involving the Miami Shootout) of rapidly expanding, high-energy (if you can call them that) handgun rounds being fired into the thoracic cavity and having no effect leading to incapacitation due to TBI.

Regardless of the forces involved, the evidence of this wounding mechanism appears spotty.

Given your claimed understanding of human anatomy, vessels, and the responses and signs of increased pressure within them as well as the manifestations of TBI's and brain-bleeds and other traumatic injuries to the human body resulting from increases in cellular and intravascular pressure, I think that you can see for yourself why I am so skeptacle based on the evidence (or lack) provided to support it as a reliable mechanism of incapacitation.

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Old 02-10-2010, 14:42   #333
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Oh, and I'm not trying to apply a fixed black nd white solution... if you read the thread you would know, once a friggin' 'gain. I have said it is an added friggin advantage. I'm tired of a bunch of lazy ****s commin' into threads thinkin they got the answers but haven't got the first clue of what's been explained over and frickin over again. Do your damn homework first and then come to discuss, don't waste me ****in time!
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Old 02-10-2010, 14:50   #334
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The Dr. I spoke with was not in the ICU setting I am currently in. You will further discover many cases "from the street" (one involving Officer Coates, another involving the Miami Shootout) of rapidly expanding, high-energy (if you can call them that) handgun rounds being fired into the thoracic cavity and having no effect to end of incapacitation due to TBI.

Regardless of the forces involved, the evidence of this wounding mechanism appears spotty.

Given your understanding of human anatomy, vessels, and the response to increased pressure within them as well as the manifestations of TBI's and brain-bleeds and other traumatic injuries, I think that you can see for yourself why I am so skeptacle based on the evidence (or lack) provided to support it as a reliable mechanism of incapacitation.
No, I see that you are unable to put all the pieces together just like everyone else. Do you understand that it is not just expanding? It's not just energy. It's not just "torso".

It's what bullet... what path discerned from the autopsy...how much energy... was their incapacitation. It's all of these things TOGETHER

You are doin what everyone else likes to do, give a bland example...

-This guy kept going after being hit with a .45

-This guy dropped from a .380

-This guy got shot 15 times

...so what, where are the other details, the other pieces?


Making long ass posts doesn't solve the problem or make you sound more believable or knoledgable
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Old 02-10-2010, 15:08   #335
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No, I see that you are unable to put all the pieces together just like everyone else. Do you understand that it is not just expanding? It's not just energy. It's not just "torso".

It's what bullet... what path discerned from the autopsy...how much energy... was their incapacitation. It's all of these things TOGETHER

You are doin what everyone else likes to do, give a bland example...

-This guy kept going after being hit with a .45

-This guy dropped from a .380

-This guy got shot 15 times

...so what, where are the other details, the other pieces?


Making long ass posts doesn't solve the problem or make you sound more believable or knoledgable
I have read your posts in this thread and feel that there nothing I can gain from you, nor do I wish to attempt to impart anything. Nothing you have posted is from your own understanding, but rather from the observations of others. I would rather read their observations than your cliff-notes of said observations. Good day to you.
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Old 02-10-2010, 18:28   #336
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Oh, and I'm not trying to apply a fixed black nd white solution... if you read the thread you would know, once a friggin' 'gain. I have said it is an added friggin advantage. I'm tired of a bunch of lazy ****s commin' into threads thinkin they got the answers but haven't got the first clue of what's been explained over and frickin over again. Do your damn homework first and then come to discuss, don't waste me ****in time!
But, on the internet everybody's an expert!

At least this thread is going better than the thread here where the poor guy asked what a good 380 load was and people chastised him for using 380 because they were, in fact, impervious to being shot with a 380 (well, might be a slight exaggeration but not by much)....or the thread where a guy who bought 100 rounds of Federal had 80 failures with it but it wasn't significant to contact Federal or where he bought....lol

Last edited by remat; 02-10-2010 at 18:34..
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Old 02-10-2010, 18:38   #337
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But, on the internet everybody's an expert!

At least this thread is going better than the thread here where the poor guy asked what a good 380 load was and people chastised him for using 380 because they were, in fact, impervious to being shot with a 380 (well, might be a slight exaggeration but not by much)....or the thread where a guy who bought 100 rounds of Federal had 80 failures with it but it wasn't significant to contact Federal or where he bought....lol
The internet allows you to be whatever you can convince people that you are. The only way to get anything useful from it is to become adept at figuring out who is really who.

All that being said, the best .380 load is the one that hits the perp in the eye-socket.
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Old 02-10-2010, 20:17   #338
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I have the Glock 35 and I brought a .357 sig barrel for it. Like having two guns in one.I just got some LEE .357 sig dies to add to the loading corner. its is a little bit more tricky to load the .357 sig brass as it is necked down .I am in the process of collecting some .357 sig brass as I do not have a lot on hand.
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Old 02-10-2010, 20:31   #339
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.357 Sig

Owned one, G33. Hands outgrew it. Called it "Thumper". I really like that cartridge.

The way it was explained to me years ago...

Bottom line... The 357 mag was king of the hill on one shot stops for years in police shootings, a round I also like. (125 grain bullet at 1325 fps I think)

This round was eventually supplanted by the 40 S&W. (Yep, another darn good round)

The 40 did not beat the 357 stats because of superiority. Officers began carrying semi-autos rather than revolvers. Not a lot of 357 semi's out there.
The 40 began racking up "stats" while the 357 revolvers were phased out.
It simply had more chances at bat...

I own 9mm, 357, 40, and 44mag.
I hit my targets more frequently with the 9mm.
I get more recoil with the others.
I don't feel undergunned with any of them...


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Old 02-10-2010, 20:45   #340
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I have read your posts in this thread and feel that there nothing I can gain from you, nor do I wish to attempt to impart anything. Nothing you have posted is from your own understanding, but rather from the observations of others. I would rather read their observations than your cliff-notes of said observations. Good day to you.
Yes , if you do not understand why a fmj is not a good example of BPW then there is certainly nothing you can impart.

Good day to you aswell.
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Old 02-10-2010, 21:21   #341
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Yes , if you do not understand why a fmj is not a good example of BPW then there is certainly nothing you can impart.

Good day to you aswell.

The FMJ is indeed inferior with regards to BPW, but disruption of nerve conductivity has been observed and documented using high-velocity steel spheres on animal tissue. Ergo, the relevance of my former roommate's GSW to the thigh with a flat-point projectile, which we can both agree, I am sure, is superior to a spherical object.

As you will note, C&C are far from the first to study shock-waves caused by ballistic missiles in the body. Also, they are far from the most thorough, shooting a few deer and calling it a "study". While this work is a bit "dated", the human body has not changed much since the 40's, and I have found it to be much more comprehensive and scientific than C&C's work.

http://history.amedd.army.mil/booksd...s/chapter3.htm

After reading this study and finding no evidence of TBI being caused by missiles at over 3,000fps impacting the body anywhere but in the cranial region, I have, for the most part, put C&C's theory of TBI as a wounding mechanism to bed, in my own mind.

If there is something in this study that I have overlooked, or for some reason misinterpreted, by all means, I am a fan of the 357SIG and would love another reason to sing its praises.

I try to keep an open mind, but I am selective about what I keep in that mind.
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Old 02-10-2010, 21:35   #342
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The FMJ is indeed inferior with regards to BPW, but disruption of nerve conductivity has been observed and documented using high-velocity steel spheres on animal tissue. Ergo, the relevance of my former roommate's GSW to the thigh with a flat-point projectile, which we can both agree, I am sure, is superior to a spherical object.

The steel shpere, depending upon the diameter might still present more of a frontal area than the .357sig fmj you referred to. Eitherway, the fmj presents little aggression towards retarding forces. A jhp is like a parachute, when it opens drematically, it rapidly sends it's energy off to cause hate and discontent... including peripheral wounding that you did not see in your buddy's wound.

As you will note, C&C are far from the first to study shock-waves caused by ballistic missiles in the body. Also, they are far from the most thorough, shooting a few deer and calling it a "study". While this work is a bit "dated", the human body has not changed much since the 40's, and I have found it to be much more comprehensive and scientific than C&C's work.

I'll check it out, don't know if I have seen it or not.

http://history.amedd.army.mil/booksd...s/chapter3.htm

After reading this study and finding no evidence of TBI being caused by missiles at over 3,000fps impacting the body anywhere but in the cranial region, I have, for the most part, put C&C's theory of TBI as a wounding mechanism to bed, in my own mind.

In the studies conducted by Suneson, animals were shot in the thigh by high speed missiles. The effects were measured in the brain with high speed transducers. That is a good distance away from the impact site, yet the pressure spike was identified. These were dogs or pigs, can't remember.

If there is something in this study that I have overlooked, or for some reason misinterpreted, by all means, I am a fan of the 357SIG and would love another reason to sing its praises.

I try to keep an open mind, but I am selective about what I keep in that mind.
I've also done some testing and witnessed a few things that would be attributed to this "wave".
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Old 02-11-2010, 07:38   #343
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There's nothing "special" about the 357 SIG, its just a bit better than all other handgun cartidges in every aspect except price.

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Old 02-11-2010, 09:24   #344
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Look man, I have a good understanding of anatomy and other things.
If its OK with you, I'll make up my own mind about that. I can only evaluate someone's credibility by what I read here since people post anonymously. I see your post #256 "...less penetration between to equally waited bullets..." For the record, its two equally weighted bullets. In you post #334 you say "..Making long ass posts doesn't solve the problem or make you sound more believable or knoledgable" For the record, its knowledgeable.

I figure someone who wanted to us to think he was knowledgeable about statistical modeling, physics, ballistics, anatomy and medicine (all at the same time) would learn how to spell. I would like to hear from people who have first hand knowledge actually researching this topic chime in.
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Old 02-11-2010, 09:30   #345
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If its OK with you, I'll make up my own mind about that. I can only evaluate someone's credibility by what I read here since people post anonymously. I see your post #256 "...less penetration between to equally waited bullets..." For the record, its two equally weighted bullets. In you post #334 you say "..Making long ass posts doesn't solve the problem or make you sound more believable or knoledgable" For the record, its knowledgeable.

I figure someone who wanted to us to think he was knowledgeable about statistical modeling, physics, ballistics, anatomy and medicine (all at the same time) would learn how to spell. I would like to hear from people who have first hand knowledge actually researching this topic chime in.
Good job Ken, you little spell check ninja. Just so you know, I don't really care 'bout my spelling on here. Everybody makes mistakes and I don't care if I do. If you spent more time learning as apposed to spell checking CC might be an easier place for you.
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Old 02-11-2010, 09:58   #346
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Again...

The 357 Sig does not have a "flat trajectory" it's a mortar round like anything else you would carry. Difference between a 357 Sig and 230gr. 45 ACP is something like 2" at 100 yards. Myth busted.

Feeding problems in my 9mm CZ-75's and Glock are "almost nonexistent" as well. Use good magazines and you should never have a problem - period.

The 357 Sig is a fine round, but it's a 9mm +P+ really, you give up some capacity to gain 50 to 75 FPS over 9mm +P rounds. It's a fine round, but there isn't anything magical about it.
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Old 02-11-2010, 11:03   #347
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Good job Ken, you little spell check ninja. Just so you know, I don't really care 'bout my spelling on here. Everybody makes mistakes and I don't care if I do. If you spent more time learning as apposed to spell checking CC might be an easier place for you.
For the record, its "opposed" not apposed. I am just saying that in trying to evaluate the credibility of an anonymous someone who claims to have expertise and understanding in as many fields as you claim to have, I find it telling that you have no idea how to spell. May not make a difference to others but it does make me question just how much "knoledge" of physics, mathematical modeling, medicine, ballistics and anatomy you really do have. Others mileage may vary.
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Old 02-11-2010, 11:30   #348
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The 357 Sig does not have a "flat trajectory" it's a mortar round like anything else you would carry. Difference between a 357 Sig and 230gr. 45 ACP is something like 2" at 100 yards. Myth busted.
Cartridge (Wb@MV) 25 yds. 50 yds. 100 yds.
357 SIG (125 at 1350) +1.7" +2.9" +0.4"
.45 ACP (230 at 850) +2.6" +2.5" -6.9"


http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_trajectory_table.htm
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Old 02-11-2010, 11:54   #349
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For the record, its "opposed" not apposed. I am just saying that in trying to evaluate the credibility of an anonymous someone who claims to have expertise and understanding in as many fields as you claim to have, I find it telling that you have no idea how to spell. May not make a difference to others but it does make me question just how much "knoledge" of physics, mathematical modeling, medicine, ballistics and anatomy you really do have. Others mileage may vary.
Slow down smoky, I said I have a good understanding, not expertise. Don't put words in my mouth. And what you don't understand is I don't care. If you don't like or trust what I post, I promise it is no loss of sleep to me. I spend no part of my day worrying if KenB22 likes/doesn't like or even reads my posts. And just so YOU know, posting stuff like this...

Quote:
I'll never buy this BPW stuff. With all of the people getting shot in wars for the last 100 years, anyone from the army ever pay any attention to possible BPW effect? Are there any government agencies that pay attention to this BPW? You'd think the agencies might like their employees to come home safely at night and to have as much edge as possible. Think how much profit the gun makers or ammo makers could make if they could just market their product as taking advantage of this BPW. Yet...the army never discusses it, the FBI and all police departments ignore it and no gun maker or ammo maker is paying any attention to this. Mr. Courtney needs a better agent. He should be inviting the FBI and sky marshals and remington and speer to his home on a daily basis and redoing his tests for them so they can "learn" and take advantage of his superior analysis. Yet they don't. Wonder why??
,,,shows that you are only limited to being my personal spell check and have no real understanding of terminal ballistics and lack the ability to identify someone who does.
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Old 02-11-2010, 13:53   #350
N/Apower
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Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 585
Quote:
Originally Posted by greyeyezz View Post
Cartridge (Wb@MV) 25 yds. 50 yds. 100 yds.
357 SIG (125 at 1350) +1.7" +2.9" +0.4"
.45 ACP (230 at 850) +2.6" +2.5" -6.9"


http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_trajectory_table.htm
At 100 yards are you capable of placing your shots in a 7" circle using a 4" barreled service-pistol? Does this difference really matter a hill of beans? If you are capable of this level of accuracy using these tools, then I would wager that 7" of hold-over is cake.
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Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42