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Old 02-15-2010, 16:28   #451
glock20c10mm
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Originally Posted by N/Apower View Post
I don't see how I lost you except that you don't understand how I calculated percentages without biasing for sample-size. I outlined that proceedure for you above so you can check the numbers (I can't help if 1 or 2 more people answered, so it might be 1-2% off or something by now). Take the raw data out of the poll, calculate to negate sample-size disparity between the groups, and there you go. Easy as pi.
Correct, I misinterpeted what you were showing for percentages. But still, as you admitted to an extent, the data leaves much to be desired. Nice shot in the dark though. Maybe you can refine your polling to get more telling results.
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Old 02-15-2010, 16:42   #452
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The biggest knock against the video is that you simply can't see the path the arrow took through the deer. Without knowing that everything is nothing but a wild assed guess from any and all aspects. If it wasn't for the current 56K dial up I have for internet access I search the heck out of videos to try to find something better. I have seen hundreds of deer shot on video with broadheads and not a single one collapsed. They all ran off to some extent. And +90% of those shots were what most would consider right on the money so to speak. Maybe someone can find a better video of something similar where shot placement/path can be clearly seen?
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Old 02-15-2010, 17:34   #453
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The biggest knock against the video is that you simply can't see the path the arrow took through the deer. Without knowing that everything is nothing but a wild assed guess from any and all aspects. If it wasn't for the current 56K dial up I have for internet access I search the heck out of videos to try to find something better. I have seen hundreds of deer shot on video with broadheads and not a single one collapsed. They all ran off to some extent. And +90% of those shots were what most would consider right on the money so to speak. Maybe someone can find a better video of something similar where shot placement/path can be clearly seen?
That's my thing, that's absolutely the first time I have EVER seen that. They all haul ass.
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Old 02-15-2010, 20:04   #454
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http://www.winchester.com/PRODUCTS/L...s/default.aspx
Winchester Ranger T
.357sig 125gr. @ 1350fps
9mm+p 127gr. @ 1250fps

You guys are saying that 100fps and 2 less grains of bullet weight make ALL the difference.
Seriously?
That's less than a 10% velocity increase.
With a straight face you are going to tell me that the .357sig is an "unbelievable manstopper" yet the 9mm+P is just adequate?
Seriously?
That must mean the standard pressure 124gr. Gold Dot @ 1150fps is downright anemic?
http://www.speer-ammo.com/ballistics/ammo.aspx

In your WW Ranger T comparison I think you mean the 9mm 127 gr +p+ (RA9TA Is a +p+). Which by the way leaves my G19 at just over 1200 fps. Then you are comparing it to the most anemic 357 sig. Within its pressure envelope the 357 sig can easily top 1425 fps, which is what I carry. So you are 175 fps above the 9mm operating above its design limit into +p+ designation. +p+ means it really is not defined as to cartridge pressure level. Looking at the higher velocity 124gr 9mm. Standard pressure is 1150fps, +p is 1200 fps and +p+ is 1250 fps (127gr). I really doubt those velocities can be reached out of a 4" barrel, but we will take it.

There is only 100 fps increase from 9mm to 9mm +p+. Does that make a big difference. Most would say yes. Going from the highest 9mm, 1250fps to a properly pressured 357 sig takes you 175 fps higher. Those of us who have shot 357 sigs for over 10 years do not like the trend to slow the bullet down. I am sure the 357 Ranger T is a good round, better than a 9mm. However, I generally carry a Corbon 125 JHP 357 sig which leaves my G32 at 1430fps. Although I do not have a ammo lab I have shot the WW127gr 9mm +p+ and the Cobon 125 gr 357sig through four layers of denim and gallon water jugs. There is a noticible and significant difference in energy transfer. The penetration is a little greater for the Ranger T, but the Corbon expands more.

This is not to criticize the Ranger T 127 +p+. My wife carries it in her G19. She just feels more comfortable with the milder round.

Last edited by PghJim; 02-15-2010 at 20:39..
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Old 02-15-2010, 21:03   #455
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It's a handgun round, not Thors hammer.
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Old 02-15-2010, 21:13   #456
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Standard pressure is 1150fps, +p is 1200 fps and +p+ is 1250 fps

Although I do not have a ammo lab
I did not know that pressure ratings were in "feet per second", I always though it was "pounds per square inch".

SAAMI pressure ratings for the 9mm are 35000 PSI for standard and 38500 for +P, there is no spec for +P+.

You don't own an ammo lab?
From your post, I could have sworn you were some kind of ballistics/physics expert.
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Old 02-15-2010, 21:19   #457
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I did not know that pressure ratings were in "feet per second", I always though it was "pounds per square inch".

SAAMI pressure ratings for the 9mm are 35000 PSI for standard and 38500 for +P, there is no spec for +P+.

You don't own an ammo lab?
From your post, I could have sworn you were some kind of ballistics/physics expert.
Traditionally, pressure measurements, with regard to internal ballistics/small arms, are in CUP or Copper Units of Pressure.

That being said, while pressure affects velocity, it is not always directly proportionate.
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Old 02-15-2010, 21:21   #458
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It's a handgun round, not Thors hammer.
Ahh, another one with poor understanding. Why bother, bro.
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Old 02-16-2010, 13:59   #459
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Oh, I understand it perfectly.
In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is King.
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Old 02-16-2010, 16:43   #460
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It's a handgun round, not Thors hammer.
Are you aware of the additional visible wound damage done in human/animal flesh with a 125gr 357SIG bullet @ 1350fps - 1450fps compared to a 147gr 9mm load at 800fps - 900fps? It's shocking. No pun intended.
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Old 02-16-2010, 17:55   #461
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Additional visible wound damage?
WTF is that and what does it have to do with lethality?
12ga. #7 birdshot makes an awesomely gruesome "visible wound" when compared to 12ga. #00 Buckshot, but I don't see anyone but the village idiot claiming it's a better man stopper.
It all comes down to poking a hole in human flesh, and whether you believe it or not all service caliber handguns do about the same (mediocre) job of poking said holes.
There is no magic bullet/caliber, deal with it and train accordingly.
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Old 02-16-2010, 18:21   #462
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Are you aware of the additional visible wound damage done in human/animal flesh with a 125gr 357SIG bullet @ 1350fps - 1450fps compared to a 147gr 9mm load at 800fps - 900fps? It's shocking. No pun intended.
According to ME's, I have heard it doesn't matter, visibly. Tissue is elastic, and 1400fps is going to look identical to 800fps, provided the slug is the same size and there is no fragmentation.

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Old 02-16-2010, 18:36   #463
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It all comes down to poking a hole in human flesh, and whether you believe it or not all service caliber handguns do about the same (mediocre) job of poking said holes.
There is no magic bullet/caliber, deal with it and train accordingly.
What are you doing in Caliber Corner? If they are all the same for you, I would think you would find more interesting reading elsewhere.
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Old 02-16-2010, 18:39   #464
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According to ME's, I have heard it doesn't matter, visibly. Tissue is elastic, and 1400fps is going to look identical to 800fps, provided the slug is the same size and there is no fragmentation.
So I would guess a large diameter arrow with a field tip would be just as effective. Although you maybe just speaking about visibly and not effectiveness.
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Old 02-16-2010, 18:50   #465
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I did not know that pressure ratings were in "feet per second", I always though it was "pounds per square inch".

SAAMI pressure ratings for the 9mm are 35000 PSI for standard and 38500 for +P, there is no spec for +P+.

You don't own an ammo lab?
From your post, I could have sworn you were some kind of ballistics/physics expert.
I just assumed since I was using your bullet example that you would make the giant leap. Probably not possible for a one eyed man. I will type it real slow this time and not leave out any words - a standard pressure 124 gr 9mm cartridge bullet can go 1150 fps. It is strange how you did not comment on the actual reply, but would prefer to snipe.
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Old 02-16-2010, 18:56   #466
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So I would guess a large diameter arrow with a field tip would be just as effective. Although you maybe just speaking about visibly and not effectiveness.
Elephants have been killed with a bow and arrow before. I have not heard of an elephant being harvested with a 9mm.

Just a worthless tid-bit ^

I was referring to what was stated about visible damage. Would an arrow be just as effective? Only if it destroyed more vessels/structures. I will take the pistol though. Hard to carry a bow around all day.

The reason I say this is because I have yet to see evidence that anything but the amount of tissue destroyed/blood lost matters with regards to incapacitation when the psychological factor is not at work. I spent some time on Lightfighter reading the accounts of all the guys who have shot dogs, etc. (usually pits during drug raids) and the .40 180gr and the 357SIG both seemed to do about the same. No dogs "dropped on the spot", all were reported to have ran a short distance and died.

Further, I read some information about the 125gr .357 Magnum. At least one of the agencies that replaced it with the .40 have reported better results across the board with the .40.

When on agency that used the .357 magnum in it's hay day did so well, they looking into the circumstances. They saw that most of the spectacular results from the .357 occured at close range, and at night. If you have ever fired a .357 using a hot 125gr load, you know how that looks at night. They postulated that the glorious effectiveness came from the psychological effect of seeing that massive ball of fire/concussion and realising one had been hit by the projectile it launched.

I can indeed see this causing a psychological stop more than a 147gr 9mm would. By comparison, the bang/flash is a joke.

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Old 02-16-2010, 18:57   #467
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I just assumed since I was using your bullet example that you would make the giant leap. Probably not possible for a one eyed man. I will type it real slow this time and not leave out any words - a standard pressure 124 gr 9mm cartridge bullet can go 1150 fps. It is strange how you did not comment on the actual reply, but would prefer to snipe.

I have observed that character assassination plays a large role in technical discussions on Glock Talk. Lots of people have left this forum because of it, however, I enjoy reading the views of others, throwing in my .02, and have some thick skin and a little time to burn for the moment, so I enjoy it.
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Old 02-16-2010, 19:21   #468
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I just have a hard time believing that velocity has no meaning in stopping effectiveness and that a 124 gr standard velocity 9mm would have the same ability to incapacitate as a 1425 fps 124 gr bullet if they expaned to the same diameter and penetrated the same. Heck, I am putting away my G32 and getting out my Kel-Tec 3AT 380 acp.
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Old 02-16-2010, 19:31   #469
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I just have a hard time believing that velocity has no meaning in stopping effectiveness and that a 124 gr standard velocity 9mm would have the same ability to incapacitate as a 1425 fps 124 gr bullet if they expaned to the same diameter and penetrated the same. Heck, I am putting away my G32 and getting out my Kel-Tec 3AT 380 acp.

I found this interesting: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=47371
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Old 02-16-2010, 19:56   #470
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Additional visible wound damage?
WTF is that and what does it have to do with lethality?
WTF is that = more bloodshot meat futher out from the permanent crush cavity, and if bone is encountered, bone fragments found in tissue further from the permanent crush cavity.

Who cares what it has to do with lethality? Lethality hasn't even been discussed.
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Old 02-16-2010, 19:57   #471
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According to ME's, I have heard it doesn't matter, visibly. Tissue is elastic, and 1400fps is going to look identical to 800fps, provided the slug is the same size and there is no fragmentation.
What are ME's?

My first guess is muzzle energies. But I'm not sure that's your meaning.
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Old 02-16-2010, 19:59   #472
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What are ME's?

My first guess is muzzle energies. But I'm not sure that's your meaning.
Medical Examiners. Like the guy that everyone here gave so much flack when he told them what he saw in the real world when it didn't jive with what they THOUGHT happened. What was his SN "Lookin4U" ?
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Old 02-16-2010, 20:10   #473
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I can see that thread being looked at positively for different reasons. Were you making a specific point by posting it?

Otherwise, DocGKR does make the case that 9mm FMJ is more effective than 380 FMJ IF anything more than flesh was encountered like bone or an intermediate barrier.

And of course he goes on to add that 9mm JHP is leaps and bounds better than 380 JHP.

And that he'ld never willingly carry 380 in any form over 9mm in any form.


The most interesting thing I took from it (which I agree with) is where DocGKR says; 9 mm M882 ball has one of the worst reputations for effectiveness of any 9 mm ammo.

The reason I bring that up is because we have a good handful of GTers who insist on carrying 9mm ball/FMJ.


Again, what was it you specifically found interesting?
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Old 02-16-2010, 20:15   #474
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What effect does a large temporary stretch cavity have as compared to a small temporary stretch if the bullets expanded and penetrated the same? 357 sigs and 10mm have been known to break the wooden frames that hold gelatin blocks. Most blocks now are free standing.
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Old 02-16-2010, 20:19   #475
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I can see that thread being looked at positively for different reasons. Were you making a specific point by posting it?

Otherwise, DocGKR does make the case that 9mm FMJ is more effective than 380 FMJ IF anything more than flesh was encountered like bone or an intermediate barrier.

And of course he goes on to add that 9mm JHP is leaps and bounds better than 380 JHP.

And that he'ld never willingly carry 380 in any form over 9mm in any form.


The most interesting thing I took from it (which I agree with) is where DocGKR says; 9 mm M882 ball has one of the worst reputations for effectiveness of any 9 mm ammo.

The reason I bring that up is because we have a good handful of GTers who insist on carrying 9mm ball/FMJ.


Again, what was it you specifically found interesting?
The wound from the .380 would be visibly identical to the wound from the 9mm, even though several hundred fps difference exist between the two. I found it relevant. Obviously a JHP has more redarding forces against it, and thus exerts more force on the medium it is passing through, BUT, if we carry the lesson over, the 357SIG should not show any difference in wounding (visibly at least) with the 124gr standard-pressure, or even 147gr 9mm, being as they expand and penetrate almost identically.
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